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12-05-2016, 08:25 PM
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#1
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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From AGMs to Lithium Batteries
This post is for those who are interested in hearing about one Airstreamer’s experience of upgrading from our factory installed AGMs (two 80amp AGMs) and solar panels (two 55 watt panels) to a Lithium Battery pack (one 200amp Lithium pack) and more solar panels (four 100 watt panels). The installation was performed a couple of months ago by AM Solar in Springfield, OR who did an absolutely outstanding job (as an aside, AM Solar also has kits for those of you who are interested in installing yourself).
Some background: Our family has had almost two years of “camping” with our 25FB Flying Cloud and during this time we were able to find out what worked well for us with the factory “energy setup” (I’ll call it) and what didn’t. We confirmed that we most like to camp in National, State, and Forest campgrounds with no hookups and no generator. The non-electric sites are the sites we like the most and frequently they are under tree cover. We discovered that we enjoy being able to use all of the electrical conveniences in the trailer (which is so much darn fun after decades of tent camping!) as well as charging our electronic devices. So using the trailer in this way (not skimping with the electrical usage and not just leaving everything on constantly) we measured our use between 40 and 50amps per day.
Since we often like to stay in one campsite for 3-5 days and travel short distances to the next campground (and repeat for six plus weeks in a row once a year) it became apparent, especially in inclement weather or during the off-season, that our factory “energy setup” was not up to the task of supplying the energy we desired. For further specifics as to our “camping style”, energy setup desires, what components we actually had installed, etc. check out this link to our Airstream’s install on AM Solar’s website as it’s easier than me posting all the info here : http://amsolar.com/solar-panels-for-...-cloud-25fb-25
So, after our first use of the Airstream with the new “energy setup” a few weeks ago I have this to say: “Absolutely amazing!” All the power we needed (plus another almost two night's worth left in the batteries assuming no solar input at all) for a wonderful, three-night November stay at a National Forest campground on the cloudy Oregon coast. My only regret is that I didn’t get a system like this sooner! I will report back again come summer when we are out for weeks at a time but I didn’t want to wait any longer to post some info .
Ballpark pricing was $4,500 for the lithium battery pack/peripherals/wiring installed and about the same for the 400 watts of solar panels/peripherals/mounts/wiring. Also got a fancy new charger/monitor/wiring installed for around $1,000.
Anyway, since I've only been able to find a few posts relating to lithium battery packs on AirForums, I thought I would share!
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12-06-2016, 09:53 PM
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#2
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Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,201
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Awesome, looks great. Very nice page on AM Solar, including their installation video. We want to do something very similar in the next year or two on Rocinante, our 27FB.
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
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12-07-2016, 01:21 PM
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#3
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
Awesome, looks great. Very nice page on AM Solar, including their installation video. We want to do something very similar in the next year or two on Rocinante, our 27FB.
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Excellent! Feel free to contact me beforehand to find out what I've learned between now and then!
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12-07-2016, 02:27 PM
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#4
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Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,201
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Will do, you are officially on our list. Thanks!
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
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12-07-2016, 02:39 PM
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#5
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4 Rivet Member
2016 27' Flying Cloud
Hartsburg
, Missouri
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 464
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This is almost exactly what we we want to do on our 2016 27" FB FC. By any chance do you have a wiring diagram or list of components that was used?--Frank
__________________
Frank & Fran
2016 27' FC FB with 600 W solar
2016 Ford F150 EcoBoost
Equalizer Hitch
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12-07-2016, 10:03 PM
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#6
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3 Rivet Member
2007 25' International CCD FB
Holladay
, Utah
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 198
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I read the AM Solar write up of the problem and solution. I know that it was written in English because I recognized most of the words. I don't understand how I could know the definition of the words, yet have no idea what this post says. The message that resonates with me is when you need more power storage go to AM Solar, tell them your problem, and then write them a big check. The less said the better. Works for me.
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12-08-2016, 11:23 AM
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#7
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fran&frank
This is almost exactly what we we want to do on our 2016 27" FB FC. By any chance do you have a wiring diagram or list of components that was used?--Frank
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I do not have a wiring diagram. The component list is included in AM Solar's entry on their website that was referenced in my original post so you can click on that link and scroll down...the component list is just below the photo of the Airstream.
Also, if you are going to do this work yourself, whatever company you choose to work with would hopefully help you with the wiring diagram. Let us know what you end up doing! This stuff, while I don't understand all of the tech, is fascinating to me.
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12-08-2016, 11:30 AM
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#8
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashSilver
I read the AM Solar write up of the problem and solution. I know that it was written in English because I recognized most of the words. I don't understand how I could know the definition of the words, yet have no idea what this post says. The message that resonates with me is when you need more power storage go to AM Solar, tell them your problem, and then write them a big check. The less said the better. Works for me.
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LOL! I feel the exact same way when I read some of the tech stuff that I can't follow...which is most of it! They really lost me when they went into what has to be wired differently for a motorhome vs. a trailer!
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12-08-2016, 12:02 PM
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#9
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3 Rivet Member
2002 25' Classic
Kalama
, Washington
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 187
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Sounds like a great set up. Just out of curiosity, how many amps were your panels able to deliver during your recent cloudy trip at the coast? I don't know much about lithiums for this application, but on my tools I run them to failure. Can you do that (and therefore utilize more store energy) instead of restricting to 50%?
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12-08-2016, 12:17 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB International
Trent Woods
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,120
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No, you can run the Lithiums down to 20%, which you should(must) monitor. You need a quality battery monitor as part of the installation. By the way, the Am Solar site has some good wiring diagrams within the product listings.
Larry
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12-08-2016, 04:45 PM
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#11
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2 Rivet Member
2016 23' Flying Cloud
Hillsborito
, Oregon
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 68
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Okay that is an impressive setup! Best of all, you're only 2hrs south of us
Time lapse of the youtube video was great! Although we just got our 23D, it'd be interesting how the installation will be like. Please continue to share your findings/experience through your adventures and when we're ready to pull the trigger, this same setup may be our ticket! Thanks for sharing!
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12-08-2016, 06:09 PM
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#12
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3 Rivet Member
2013 20' Flying Cloud
Between Here and There and Nowhere
, what have you got?
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 146
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Thanks Meeks for posting this. What do you figure, of the $4,500 total cost, breaks down for parts and labor? I'm looking to do the same setup with my labor.
Bill
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12-08-2016, 07:14 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2016 25' Flying Cloud
Jupiter
, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openroad118
Thanks Meeks for posting this. What do you figure, of the $4,500 total cost, breaks down for parts and labor? I'm looking to do the same setup with my labor.
Bill
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The total cost was more like $10,000. 4500+4500+1000.
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12-08-2016, 07:34 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeks
LOL! I feel the exact same way when I read some of the tech stuff that I can't follow...which is most of it! They really lost me when they went into what has to be wired differently for a motorhome vs. a trailer!
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Be thankful that you indeed DO have a trailer. This is a shot of a motor home system that I finished last week. It's just a 'bit' more complex than what we (myself and AM Solar) put in Airstreams.
This system was 960 watts of roof solar, full Victron monitoring system with Color Control GX, MultiPlus 12/3000 hybrid inverter/charger, 600 amp/hours of Victron lithium batteries, fully automatic low temperature charging disconnect system and a second, plug-in ground-based array system using a second Victron solar controller.
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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12-08-2016, 08:30 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Parker
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,772
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Lewster,
That's one badass system and setup. Nice work.
So do you connect the negative loads from the BMS? The shiny goes between battery and BMS?
Do you know the lead time on getting the lithiums? How long of an order time or wait for one 300 amphr?
__________________
Thanks,
Troutboy
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12-08-2016, 09:40 PM
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#16
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwclassic
Sounds like a great set up. Just out of curiosity, how many amps were your panels able to deliver during your recent cloudy trip at the coast? I don't know much about lithiums for this application, but on my tools I run them to failure. Can you do that (and therefore utilize more store energy) instead of restricting to 50%?
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Isbrodsky got it right. Lithiums are able to safely be drawn down to 20% of their full capacity. And they require a BMS (Battery Management System) that monitors the battery pack in multiple ways (prevents over-voltage and under-voltage, maintains and balances the battery pack's cells, and more) including not allowing the batteries to be drawn down below a set point so as to avoid irreversibly damaging them.
In terms of the amps our panels delivered each day, I didn't track it on our first trip. I was having too much fun playing on vacation and not worrying about our batteries dying! I will do a better tracking job on future trips and report back.
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12-08-2016, 09:45 PM
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#17
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openroad118
Thanks Meeks for posting this. What do you figure, of the $4,500 total cost, breaks down for parts and labor? I'm looking to do the same setup with my labor.
Bill
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SeaLevel had the overall price correct when he posted: "The total cost was more like $10,000. 4500+4500+1000." I should have written the total in the original post.
Roughly, parts are 50% and labor is 50%. So, if you have the wherewithal and interest you can save a lot of money doing your own work, for sure!
Keep us posted if you go for it whether AGMs or Lithiums!
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12-08-2016, 09:52 PM
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#18
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i2oadRunnei2
Okay that is an impressive setup! Best of all, you're only 2hrs south of us
Time lapse of the youtube video was great! Although we just got our 23D, it'd be interesting how the installation will be like. Please continue to share your findings/experience through your adventures and when we're ready to pull the trigger, this same setup may be our ticket! Thanks for sharing!
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I will share more on this thread as we learn more. It was fun deciding between AGMs and Lithiums. They are both such strong contenders for those Airstreamers who aren't on shore power for a bunch of time. If we "camped" differently I would have chosen more AGMs. It was so great to have all the seasons with our "starter AGM and solar panel system" to see what did and didn't work for us and our typical Airstream traveling.
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12-08-2016, 09:54 PM
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#19
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Eugene
, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
Be thankful that you indeed DO have a trailer. This is a shot of a motor home system that I finished last week. It's just a 'bit' more complex than what we (myself and AM Solar) put in Airstreams.
This system was 960 watts of roof solar, full Victron monitoring system with Color Control GX, MultiPlus 12/3000 hybrid inverter/charger, 600 amp/hours of Victron lithium batteries, fully automatic low temperature charging disconnect system and a second, plug-in ground-based array system using a second Victron solar controller.
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I am counting my lucky "trailer" blessings when I see this setup you show ! Really cool stuff you're doing, Lew. Such clean work. Thanks for sharing!
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12-08-2016, 10:46 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2017 25' International
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Los Osos
, California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meeks
This post is for those who are interested in hearing about one Airstreamer’s experience of upgrading from our factory installed AGMs (two 80amp AGMs) and solar panels (two 55 watt panels) to a Lithium Battery pack (one 200amp Lithium pack) and more solar panels (four 100 watt panels). The installation was performed a couple of months ago by AM Solar in Springfield, OR who did an absolutely outstanding job.
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We have an appointment with AM Solar to install between 400 and 600 watts on our 2017 25FB. Seeing the video of your 25FB install was awesome.
Do you happen to know whether or not you could have gotten two more SP100 panels on your 25FB's roof?
AM did a 320 watt install on our 2014 International 23D. We used two Lifeline 6Volt 220AH batteries. We could camp indefinitely in reasonably clear weather. Over half of our 3.5 month trip to Alaska this summer was boon docking, in very mixed weather. Our batteries never went below 80% with normal DC lights and safety systems and we used a moderate amount of AC inverter for computers, TV etc, mainly during the day.
I'd like to go for 600 watts on the 25FB to allow for quicker charging of the AGMs in shade and inclement weather.
My really big decision is whether to spend $4500 on a Lithium battery bank or stick with two $350 6Volt AGMs.
Thanks....this thread has been an eye opener.
__________________
2017 Airstream International Serenity 25FB
2016 RAM 2500 Crew Cab Cummins 6.7 Diesel
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