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08-07-2014, 10:40 PM
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#21
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Rivet Master
1974 Argosy 20
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Kooskia
, Idaho
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringDan
Chris
BTW, my Dometic fridge is about 2 years old. It has a 12v connection, for the controls, I presume, but it does not seem to draw any 12v power when I boondock. I can boondock for 4 days and the battery voltage typically only drops from about 12.9v to 12.7v. No solar, and don't see any reason for solar since my battery power usage is so small. I have actually operated my fridge for days without any batteries installed and I was not connected to shore power.
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Dan: you most likely have a refrigerator with the older non electric propane control system. They have a two level flame, which goes from low to high when cooling is needed, then back to low flame. The flame never goes out, and there is not a pilot light, just hi and lo flame. Once ignited no power at all is needed to run those type of refrigerator. I have one, about 3 years old, in my Argosy so they are still available. On mine there is a 12 volt connection to operate the spark lighter only, but once it is lighted, no other power is consumed.
Most propane refrigerators built today use a system which lights the flame each time cooling is called for. This requires 12 volt power for the electronic thermostat, the circuit board to ignite and prove the flame, and the gas valve. My 2014 FC has that kind of refrigerator, and when the burner is on, it takes about 0.3 amps at 12 volts to keep it going. Less when the burner is off. I have measured others at 0.7 amps when running.
I think the OP of this thread had switched his refrigerator to operate on 12 volts only, which requires about 20 to 25 amps to operate the 12 volt heating element. That is what killed his battery so fast. And his converter/charger may not be working properly as it should have provided enough power to run the 20 + amp load, as others have noted.
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08-07-2014, 10:42 PM
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#22
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2 Rivet Member
1974 21' Globetrotter
staten island
, New York
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al and Missy
If you were on shore power when you switched to 12V and stayed on shore power, there is no way the battery should have been dead. If stuff started to work when you hooked up the truck, that is an indication that, for whatever reason, the converter was not putting out any power. You either had a converter failure or blew a fuse, if there is one on the converter output.
Your battery may be OK. However, even the smallest Dometic 3-way fridge takes over 10 amps when operating from 12V. That will kill a Group 27 in less than 12 hours.
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I did check the fuses that were handy and they were all okay. i'll investigate the converter tomorrow, as I stated earlier the battery, univolt, converter were all replaced last year so something is obviously wrong.
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08-07-2014, 11:06 PM
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#23
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2 Rivet Member
1974 21' Globetrotter
staten island
, New York
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 55
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So, my next question is how do I check to see if the converter is working?
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08-08-2014, 05:41 AM
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#24
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
.
, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcorona
So, my next question is how do I check to see if the converter is working?
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Disconnect the negative battery terminal, and see if the lights in the trailer still work. IF they do, step 2 would involve a volt meter at the (now reconnected) battery terminals. If the battery is fully charged, you should see voltage of about 13.5
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
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08-08-2014, 07:04 AM
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#25
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Rivet Master
1974 Argosy 26
Morrill
, Nebraska
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,014
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fridge killed battery
Did you check the fuses on the converter itself? There are usually 2 40 amp fuses to protect the converter from a reverse polarity connection. If they blow there will be no output from the converter.
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08-08-2014, 08:43 AM
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#26
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2 Rivet Member
1974 21' Globetrotter
staten island
, New York
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 55
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Quick update,
Took the battery to Napa this morning since it is a Napa marine deep cycle blah blah batty. It had 6.7 volts in it. Unfortunately the do not have a capability to charge so I went over to Auto Zone for a charge. Here is where I learned that it would not accept a charge so back to napa I went where they gave me a credit for the 10 month old battery so the new one cost me 45 bucks. I Hooked the battery up and lo and behold everything works as it should.
Quick update on the converter.I went over all the fuses this morning and they were all picture perfect, so in my amateur opinion this was a weak battery that died.
I toyed with buying a glass matt battery last year, looks like I should have.
I hope this chapter is now closed.
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08-08-2014, 09:11 AM
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#27
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4 Rivet Member
1989 29' Excella
1979 31' Sovereign
1999 25' Safari
Youngsville
, North Carolina
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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dcorona
what was the water level in the battery? If the battery was low you won't be able to get a full charge. Also if running refrig on 12v alone it won't last more than 1-2 days. More efficient to run it on propane.
Steve
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08-08-2014, 10:09 AM
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#28
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Rivet Master
Port Orchard
, Washington
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,463
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This is getting way more complicated than it needs to be. The answer is simple and has been pointed out at least a few times so far by Idroba and others. If you have a refrigerator that runs off of 12v DC (not including that small amount used for control), it can not be run it in that position for very long at all. A matter of hours in fact. It is a huge current draw. I had one in an older trailer several years ago and in warm weather the charging line from the tow vehicle could not keep up with it. If I tried to tow with the refer in the 12v position, the trailer battery would be dead when I reached the destination. I suggest that the batteries are now ruined and need to be replaced. After that do not run the Refer in 12v postion. Use in in the gas or 115v (on shore power) positions only. It it does have both those options then replace it with a more modern one.
My 2 cents worth,
Ken
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08-08-2014, 10:23 AM
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#29
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Rivet Master
2024 23' Flying Cloud
San Antonio
, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 502
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Our fridge is a 3 way. My procedure is to go out to the storage facility and turn on the fridge on shore power about two days before departure. At the same time, I turn the battery switch to "on" from the "store" position. At the time of departure, we get everything hooked up and loaded, and as our very last step, we switch the fridge to "battery", unhook & store the shore power cord, and leave. Our last long trip was over 7 hours, and we had no problems with a dead battery upon arrival. Fridge stayed cold as well.
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08-08-2014, 12:26 PM
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#30
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Rivet Master
2005 19' Safari
GLENDALE
, AZ
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,453
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RV refrigerators use very little propane. I don't understand why recent posts seem to indicate a preference to running them on 12-volts. Could those who have 3-way refrigerators please explain? -- Thanks!
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08-08-2014, 12:41 PM
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#31
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,801
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Dear Cannonball, I have to go through a tunnel virtually every time I take the Airstream out of town (It's Norfolk/Virginia Beach, VA - in case of nuclear attack - goodbye). And every time I go through one of the tunnels I have to turn off the propane. I have a 2012 Airstream with an automatic failover from electric to propane on the refrigerator. I always mean to turn the propane back on, but half the time I arrive at a stopping point five hours later and go to the fridge for a cold water and NO PROBLEM. It's still cold. It will stay quite cold for far longer, too. The more cold stuff in your refrigerator the longer it will stay cold.
I fulltime, so I don't usually load the fridge specially for a trip. The only purchase I do make is a bag of ice if the freezer is empty or nearly empty. That bag will help keep everything cold and it won't drip all over the inside either.
I also don't understand why people would prefer 12 volt over propane. The supposed fire hazard? Electricity causes fires too. Either way... the big truth is that our RV refrigerators are darn good travel coolers even with just a chunk of ice in them. Once again technology is providing us with a "solution" that doesn't actually have a real problem.
(The best "technology" to keep TP from coming off the roll while traveling - is to squash the roll flat and remount it.)
Happy Friday - Paula
__________________
Today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.
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08-08-2014, 03:48 PM
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#32
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2 Rivet Member
1974 21' Globetrotter
staten island
, New York
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag&Au
This is getting way more complicated than it needs to be. The answer is simple and has been pointed out at least a few times so far by Idroba and others. If you have a refrigerator that runs off of 12v DC (not including that small amount used for control), it can not be run it in that position for very long at all. A matter of hours in fact. It is a huge current draw. I had one in an older trailer several years ago and in warm weather the charging line from the tow vehicle could not keep up with it. If I tried to tow with the refer in the 12v position, the trailer battery would be dead when I reached the destination. I suggest that the batteries are now ruined and need to be replaced. After that do not run the Refer in 12v postion. Use in in the gas or 115v (on shore power) positions only. It it does have both those options then replace it with a more modern one.
My 2 cents worth,
Ken
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Ken, I believe you summed up this entire thread perfectly with your post.I honestly did not know until know the issues that come up that running the fridge on 12V only.
I believe I am in the clear, so thanks everyone for your input I learned a lot through this ordeal.
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08-08-2014, 08:24 PM
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#33
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Rivet Master
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idroba
Dan: you most likely have a refrigerator with the older non electric propane control system. They have a two level flame, which goes from low to high when cooling is needed, then back to low flame. The flame never goes out, and there is not a pilot light, just hi and lo flame. Once ignited no power at all is needed to run those type of refrigerator. I have one, about 3 years old, in my Argosy so they are still available. On mine there is a 12 volt connection to operate the spark lighter only, but once it is lighted, no other power is consumed.
Most propane refrigerators built today use a system which lights the flame each time cooling is called for. This requires 12 volt power for the electronic thermostat, the circuit board to ignite and prove the flame, and the gas valve. My 2014 FC has that kind of refrigerator, and when the burner is on, it takes about 0.3 amps at 12 volts to keep it going. Less when the burner is off. I have measured others at 0.7 amps when running.
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idroba
Thanks for the explanation for how my fridge works and why it does not consume any battery power once the pilot light is lit. I am glad that I have a new fridge, but with the old technology. This helps me boondock while using minimal battery power for lights, tv, water pump and a vent fan as needed. From your measurement of .3 amp I figure that I save 7 amp-hr each day of battery power. I suspect that this is less than I use each day for my other normal 12v loads. The tradeoff is that the pilot light is on and is using propane, but the extra heat must provide some fridge cooling as well.
Dan
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08-08-2014, 10:45 PM
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#34
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Rivet Master
1974 Argosy 20
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Kooskia
, Idaho
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringDan
idroba
The tradeoff is that the pilot light is on and is using propane, but the extra heat must provide some fridge cooling as well.
Dan
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Not much extra I would expect. The low flame keeps the refrigerator almost cooling, so it does not take as much time to bring it up to temp as if the flame was off.
I just returned from a boondock trip. I started with two full 30# tanks of propane. I lighted the refrigerator on gas to cool it down on a Wed. I left on Saturday and returned on Monday 2 weeks later. So, the refrig was on for 19 days. I also used propane heated hot water for the trip, showers each day, some dish washing. A little heat for a few cool nights. The first 30# tank is still providing service. So the propane refrigerator does not take a lot of gas, even running constantly. Solar provided the 12 volt power I needed, with the batteries fully charged each day.
I too like the old, non electric propane refrigerator system. But since I have solar on both my trailers, it is not as important for me to conserve every amp hour of power as it was in the past.
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08-09-2014, 10:25 PM
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#35
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Rivet Master
1974 Argosy 26
Morrill
, Nebraska
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,014
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There is really no "pilot" light in the refer. Only a burner controlled by the thermostat. When more cooling is required. The flame increases in size.
And visa versa.
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08-11-2014, 05:47 AM
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#36
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Rivet Master
1995 30' Excella
Bowie
, Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foiled Again
Dear Cannonball, I have to go through a tunnel virtually every time I take the Airstream out of town (It's Norfolk/Virginia Beach, VA - in case of nuclear attack - goodbye). And every time I go through one of the tunnels I have to turn off the propane. I have a 2012 Airstream with an automatic failover from electric to propane on the refrigerator. I always mean to turn the propane back on, but half the time I arrive at a stopping point five hours later and go to the fridge for a cold water and NO PROBLEM. It's still cold. It will stay quite cold for far longer, too. The more cold stuff in your refrigerator the longer it will stay cold.
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This has been our experience, too: The fridge stays cold, even when off, on all but the longest/hottest days. (From a fellow nuclear attack victim, living near DC.)
__________________
1995 Airstream Classic 30' Excella 1000
2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with Cummins 6.7L Diesel
Sold but not forgotten: 1991 Airstream B190
Sold: 2006 F-250 6.0L Powerstroke Supercab
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08-11-2014, 06:16 AM
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#37
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Rivet Master
1955 22' Safari
Laredo
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,342
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When replacing my vintage (propane only) fridge I opted for a 110 volt only model which is much larger and has a separate freezer door. I leave it connected to shore power in my garage and fill it with food and drinks prior to camping. As long as it stays closed, we always arrive with cold stuff in the fridge and frozen stuff in the freezer, even in the Texas heat.
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08-11-2014, 03:55 PM
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#38
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2 Rivet Member
1974 21' Globetrotter
staten island
, New York
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 55
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Well! I just went in to clean it up for this weekends journey and the battery is completely dead again. Nothing was on and it was plugged in. Now What?! Is the converter killing my battery?
My patience is gone with this issue.
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08-11-2014, 04:19 PM
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#39
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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Has to be the battery! Jim
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08-11-2014, 04:38 PM
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#40
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Rivet Master
2002 30' Classic S/O
Fleming Island
, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,668
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You are going to have to get competent professional help (not sure your current repair facility is in that category) or do it yourself.
IF you take it on yourself, you will need an ammeter that can read up to 30 amps or so.
0. Disconnect the battery from the trailer and charge it using a separate charger and then put it back in the trailer.
1. Unplug the trailer from the shore power and turn off the battery disconnect switch
2. Remove the positive cable from the battery.
3. Put the negative probe from the ammeter on the battery positive post
4. Set the ammeter on its highest scale
5. Put the positive probe from the ammeter on the positive battery cable
You will have to figure out a way to keep the probes connected using alligator clips or something. With this configuration, current going into the battery will read positive and current leaving the battery will read negative. Set the ammeter for negative current if it is not automatic.
6. Turn the battery disconnect switch on. If everything in the trailer is truly off, you should see no current indicated on the ammeter. If the ammeter is not automatic ranging, one step at a time, reduce the scale of the ammeter until you get to where it gives a reading or you get to the lowest scale. Record the reading.
7. If you have a reading that is not zero, find your propane detector and disconnect it. It is typically not run through the fuse panel, and maybe not even through the disconnect switch. The propane detector can draw up to 250 milliamps (1/4 Amp). At 250 milliamps, your battery will last somewhere in excess of 2 weeks without being charged.
8. If the current remains, go to the DC fuse panel and pull fuses one at a time until the reading changes. Any time it changes, something on that circuit is drawing current. When you find circuits that are drawing current, figure out what is on that circuit and check each device.
9. If you have pulled all the fuses and current is still indicated, there is some kind of a parasitic load connected at some point other than through the fuse panel. Look for additional inline fuses in your wiring and pull them one at a time.
10. When you are convinced that all the connected loads in the trailer are OK, turn your attention to the converter. Set the ammeter for positive current and plug in the shore power. You should see positive current indicating that the converter is charging the battery. If the battery is fully charged, this should be no more than 100 - 300 milliamps or so but may be more, depending on your converter. The Power Designs PD-9260 does not go into float for 32 hours, and so may be putting out an amp or more during that period.
11. Unplug from shore power. The current should return to whatever it was prior to plugging in. IF you are still seeing a significant amount of current drain (negative indication), the converter itself may be bad. Disconnect the negative cable from the converter and see if the current drops. If disconnecting the converter gets rid of your current drain the converter is bad or wired wrong.
This is easier to do than to explain. Once you understand the concept of current flow, that loads draw current and the converter should only source current, it should be possible to find the problem.
Good luck, whatever you try to do.
Al
__________________
“You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
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