Flooded cell or AGM

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If you look over a range of years, the term "Lithium" covers a *lot* of ground. Not all that long ago, you imported batteries from CALB in China and built a BMS from scratch. A lot of people didn't understand the need for a BMS and went without one. That was indeed a mistake on their part. The data *was* out there at the time, people simply didn't follow it.

What we now call Lithium (in terms of an RV battery) is a unit with a built in BMS. That's a massively different approach than fiddling this and fiddling that all on your own. Things like cell matching and cell testing have been handled by the manufacturer. Again a change from a decade back.

The result is a battery that "self protects". If you try to charge or discharge it incorrectly, it simply disconnects from the system. That's an enormous difference from an older "no BMS" lithium or from a lead acid based system. Can you hit it with a lightning bolt and damage it? Sure, but the "normal" things you might do aren't a big deal.

The BMS also takes care of cute things like charge voltage vs temperature. It's amazing how many people ignore this on their battery systems. It *is* a big deal on any battery type.

The result is a battery that people will give you a 10 year warranty on. That includes using it to the 100% discharge point on a routine basis.

The "high current" side of lithium's doesn't just apply to discharge. It also applies when charging. You can get a set of lithium's up to 100% *much* faster than a set of lead acid batteries. If you are charging from a generator your run time is going to be *way* smaller.

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While Trojan's are darn good batteries. I'm not convinced that the term "golf cart batteries" is a good way to look at them. There are other manufacturers of T-105 "like" batteries that don't seem to do as good a job. At least over in the world of boats, people have had a lot of issues with other brands. If you are going to go for the T-105, get the real ones. Don't mess with a brand from out of nowhere.

As noted above, I would get a charger that has a temperature monitor if upgrading the batteries to anything fancy. The proper charge voltage for lead acid varies a lot over temperature. Without taking that into account, you will not be doing well by your batteries.

===

With any battery upgrade, I'd strongly recommend putting in something like a BMV-712. Regardless of battery type, a charge counting monitor is the only way to really know what's going on with the battery bank.

Bob

[Shermy1987]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Lithium's are actually the lowest cost option *if* you look at how long they will last. Wet cell / golf cart / 6V batteries are rated in the 800 cycles range. On a similar basis Lithium's are rated out around 5,000 cycles. If you get 10 years out of wet cells, Lithium's should last you for > 60 years . Lithium's with built in BMS setups are "self protected" so you can't destroy them anywhere near as easily as a wet cell.

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To get the full capacity out of something like a Trojan 6V T-105 you need an "interesting" charger. Take a look at Trojan's spec sheet for all the details. They charge them a bit harder ( = higher voltages) than a conventional / stock charger will run to. If you put them on a conventional charger, the result will be less than a full ( = their specified max) charge.

That's not in any way a knock on the T-105's. They are fine batteries and Trojan is a great company. It's simply that you need to customize your charger to get full performance out of them. It's a rare forum member who runs capacity tests on batteries so .... who knows what this or that person is getting for capacity. Is it 220 AH or 230 or 210 or 200 or .... If it's 200, then you didn't beat AGM's ....

Bob

I have nothing against lithium batteries, I have them myself. But I wouldn't be trusting the advertising statements about lithium longevity.

Until we've all had them for 10 years and get data on faliure rates, god knows how long they actually last on average. I wouldn't be trusting their warranties much either.

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by Shermy1987

I have nothing against lithium batteries, I have them myself. But I wouldn't be trusting the advertising statements about lithium longevity.



Until we've all had them for 10 years and get data on faliure rates, god knows how long they actually last on average. I wouldn't be trusting their warranties much either.

The cycle counts are pretty well proven for the chemistry, they have been used in EVs and hybrid cars for longer than 10 years. The DOE and many other state agencies have done extensive cycle testing on LiFePO4 batteries. But. I guess if you think you need some other testing you can wait for it, however please don’t just imply that there isn’t any evidence to support the claims from the lithium battery makers. BattleBorn’s batteries use the same cells as _many_ other far more intense use cases that prove durability already.

[Snailer]

Has anyone on here tried Ultra Long Life SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Battery, I just saw one and they seem interesting?.

[suncoasteng]

Nobody will want to steal 6V batteries on the front of your TT ! But I have seen a computer room fire started by failed lithium battery bank!

[SasquatchAL]

Back to flooded vs AGM....

Do AGM charge faster than flooded? If so, that might be a consideration when boondocking charging with a generator.

[55AS]

In my case, the battery is inside the trailer so AGM was the obvious choice. I also like the maintenance free aspect. Based on recommendation from Randy at Best Converter I bought this one: http://www.bestconverter.com/Fullriv...l#.XMGnY3mWxZQ

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by SasquatchAL

Back to flooded vs AGM....

Do AGM charge faster than flooded? If so, that might be a consideration when boondocking charging with a generator.

Hi

Both are lead acid chemistry so no, one does not charge any faster than the other.

Bob

[Zil]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

..... But, a 2000W inverter can draw 2000/12=166.7 amps. That is equivalent to an 83A load on a set of four golf cart batteries. Again, from the above article, we see that even at a 50A load, four golf cart batteries would be below 50% state of charge in 45 minutes. Your 460AH battery bank running a 100A load will only last 45 minutes ....

Interesting. Battle born says their batteries are better.



My experience. The microwave draws 150 amps on high. I use it for about 15 to 30 minutes total per day. The coffee pot draws equivalent for the 3 minutes it takes to pump out a half liter of coffee. What ever the furnace fan uses on a cold winter night.

By the end of a sunny day my bank is 100% using my 400W solar.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by Zil

Interesting. Battle born says their batteries are better.



My experience. The microwave draws 150 amps on high. I use it for about 15 to 30 minutes total per day. The coffee pot draws equivalent for the 3 minutes it takes to pump out a half liter of coffee. What ever the furnace fan uses on a cold winter night.

By the end of a sunny day my bank is 100% using my 400W solar.

Agree Zil, Battleborn Lithiums can run a microwave. The comment you replied to was for lead-acid batteries, both AGM and wet-cells. Lead acid batteries cannot withstand high amp loads and will not provide anywhere near their 20-hour amp rating under high loads. Lithiums can provide 100AH loads and still provide their full rated amps. A pair of 100AH Lithiums could run a microwave for over an hour where a pair of 100AH lead-acid batteries would only last for maybe 15 minutes.

I see you have four AGM's, so your batteries will last for about 45 minutes with the microwave. If you use it for 15 minutes, that leaves plenty of amp hours for your other uses each day and your 400W of solar is capable of recharging the batteries. So it sounds like 4 AGM's can work with 400W of solar, but I wouldn't use a 2000W inverter with my pair of lead-acid batteries.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If you start getting in to 2 or 3 KW sort of loads, there are a lot of gotcha's. Wiring everything so that there is equal power from each battery often is one of them.

Bob

[Zil]

I have EGC2 wet cell battery bank.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by Zil

I have EGC2 wet cell battery bank.

Wow! So do I and they do work great. I just posted in my "On the Road with Airmiles" thread some information that those with Duracell EGC2 batteries will find useful including: the battery's charging parameters, cycle life vs depth of discharge table, capacity vs temperature table, voltage/state of charge table. A Duracell EGC2 battery is actually a relabeled Deka East/Penn GC15 battery. http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...ml#post2235277

Here is where I found this information:

https://www.invertersupply.com/media...lyer-0919b.pdf

http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0004.pdf

I'm actually surprised that four of these batteries work so well to power your 2000W inverter and microwave. These are really tough batteries based on this article: https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

.....

Here is where I found this information:

https://www.invertersupply.com/media...lyer-0919b.pdf

http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0004.pdf

......

Hi

The inverter supply link seems to be broken ...

Bob

[Dingo Girl]

So if I buy the Lifeline and leave my trailer plugged in year round, except when on the road will my new convertor take care of it?
Or does this battery have to come in the house in our bitter cold winters.
I don't want to wreck a 300 dollar battery.
Thanks

[Dingo Girl]

By in the house I mean on a charger.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

The inverter supply link seems to be broken ...

Bob

https://www.invertersupply.com/media...lyer-0919b.pdf

www invertersupply.com/media/data/Flooded-Monobloc-Flyer-0919b.pdf

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by Dingo Girl

So if I buy the Lifeline and leave my trailer plugged in year round, except when on the road will my new convertor take care of it?
Or does this battery have to come in the house in our bitter cold winters.
I don't want to wreck a 300 dollar battery.
Thanks

I've got the Lifelines but I charge them on 300 watts of solar. My trailer hasn't been plugged in for years. On the road or off they only ever charge on solar. Sun or shade they charge even at -20. I just clean the snow off after a snow fall. I just use a PWM charge controller, which is cheap.

[Dingo Girl]

Thank you gator!

[Dingo Girl]

I got the Lifeline AGM. So far so good. It's plugged into shore power now.
All good!