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Old 09-05-2011, 12:17 AM   #1
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Extra Amp Hour Capacity

I've checked, and I'm surprised that can't find as thread that deals with this. If there is such a thread, pls just point me to it.

My question: We dry camp a lot and I want to increase battery amp-hour capacity. I'm thinking about buying two additional, identical batteries to the two that came with my 2011 FC. I would connect the additional batteries in parallel and wire the appropriate pins of a female 7 pin connector to the extra batteries. I would plug in the TT's umbilical to the connector on the extra batteries when camping.

I believe I could charge the four battery setup using my Yamaha 2kw plugged into the shore power connector just as I do now. I just wouldn't need to run the gen set as often.

Is this lunacy/dangerous? Will it cause hair loss??? Has anyone tried it?

Seems pretty straight forward to me, but then I'm electrically challenged ...

Thanks for the advice.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:33 AM   #2
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You can sure add more batteries provided you have a place for them but I'm a little confused on the 7 pin connector and why you want to do that. If your current 7 pin plug is connected to the current batteries (charging from the tow vehicle alternator) and you parallel two more, you don't need another connection. Same with the converter.
I assume you mean parallel with the existing two batteries you already have but if you are talking about a separate bank, independant of your existing batteries then you will need something to select which bank is being charged. I still don't see the need for the 7 pin connection but maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 09-05-2011, 03:25 AM   #3
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I think most people consider adding extra batteries when they have solar, or they don't have a generator (because a couple of extra batteries are cheaper than a generator). However, if you already have a generator, I would use it more often or longer before buying more batteries. Also, converting some of your lights to LEDs and looking at conserving energy would better utilize the storage you now have.

A good analogy might be your home air conditioner. Before buying a bigger unit, wouldn't it make sense to try keeping your curtains closed during the day, fixing the doggie door that sticks open and reminding the kids to turn off the exhaust fan in the bathroom when their done taking showers? What you have now might suffice.

Also, extra batteries would be heavy and take up room in the bed of your truck (or wherever you store them). You might even consider replacing your existing batteries with larger ones, when they fail.
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Old 09-05-2011, 05:48 AM   #4
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more battery power

i replaced my original batteries...2, 27 series with maybe 100 amp hours combined...with two 8 D AGM batteries...these are 250 amp hours each....and i wish i had three of them...i have 190 watts of solar as well...but the batteries, with 2000 watt inverter allow for about 8 hours of off grid activity...heavy tv, computer use before i have to restrict usage, or start the generator,,,in a restricted generator use area lots of battery power is a good thing
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:26 AM   #5
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RG,

I did almost the same thing with our 63 Safari. Carried a second, (63 only had one), 12v marine battery, when dock'n it sat on the tongue in a plastic B/box connected thru the umbilical cord. Worked fine for extra 12v. Had a 1000w Yamaha that I used to keep 'em charged up.

But you already have two batts and should be able to keep them juiced with your genset thru the converter, typically around an hr/day or less.

The OEM batts usually last about three years, go with a battery upgrade at that time to gain your Ah rating.

OR if 'yer like most of us......DO IT NOW!!!

Bob
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:25 AM   #6
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re: "2, 27 series with maybe 100 amp hours combined" -- a group 27 battery has about 100 AH @ 12v so 2 would have 200 AH@12v

The energy density of lead acid batteries is about 45 watt hours per kilogram. At the 50% cost effective discharge versus life point, that comes out to about 12 watt hours per pound of usable energy in an RV battery bank.

Two things to note: it's the total weight of battery that counts, not the voltage or type, when it comes to energy storage. Second, there just isn't that much energy you can store in batteries - a gallon of propane has 25 times the energy storage as a typical RV battery and typical daily household use is nearly 50 battery's worth.

Generally, if you feel you don't have sufficient electrical energy storage, your first priority should be on your charging and battery maintenance equipment. After that, your usage habits need consideration. Adding batteries just doesn't do much, a trailer can't handle much battery weight, and there are proper compartment considerations that should not be ignored. One reason some folks prefer 24 ton MoHo's is because those things can carry a lot more battery than a trailer can.

no magic bullets, watch out for anecdotes, beware of any labels not supported by objective and pertinent measure, and watch out for the bull. (there is a lot of it when it comes to this topic!)
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:42 AM   #7
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Take a look at what Dan did: Mali Mish - An Airstream Travel Blog. » Blog Archive » Our Portable Battery Bank.
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:50 AM   #8
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Bryan ive been reading through the relevant threads on batteries/boondocking and have seen the advice you gave repeated alot. Obviously proper charger/maintnance is a must. And conservation makes sense. But doubling your bank to 400ah from 200ah by bringing another set of 27s in a battery box in truck bed (my plan) would seem to give you twice as much battery time right?

As is with reasonable usage im seeing 2-3days to empty so probably 1.5-2days to 50%. My most common trip is leaving work early on a thursday getting 100mi,es down the road and overnight at walmart or rest stop and on to a campground for fri-sat-sun. So by saturday morning my batteries are dead. I really dont want to run my generator all weekend. With the extra bank i could go all 3nights without having to run the generator at all and recharge batteries once i get home.
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:54 AM   #9
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Have you considered running one or two solar panels? I have two 100 watt solar panels and one 65 watt panel mounted on the roof with 3M tape. I run one Trojan grp. 27 batter that has 115 amp hrs. and run fans over 90 % of the day during warm weather. The battery is almost 6 yrs. old and I rarely use my Yamaha 3000iSEB generator.

Do you currently have grp. 24 or grp. 27 batteries?
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:56 AM   #10
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Randy, sorry for the 7 pin connector confusion. My idea is to use a duplicate of the female connector on my TV as a way to easily connect the TT to the extra batteries when we're camping and disconnected from the TV.
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:22 AM   #11
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Batteries are somewhat of a "black art" especially when it comes to parallel hookups and charging at the same time. As I understand it, you want to have two more batteries in your TV and plug them into the AS via the original cord that connects the AS and the TV, using the existing 12 volt charge line in the cord.

The problem is that the wires in the cord are relatively small, and the added resistance of the plug combination will give the new batteries not only a lower chance to deliver the power to the AS, but will make them very difficult to charge. Paralleled 12 volt batteries must not only be very close in age, and size to charge properly, but also must have virtually no resistance in the wires between them to charge equally. What you are proposing to do is to have four 12 volt batteries in parallel, two in the TV and two in the AS. I can almost guarantee that they will not all charge/discharge equally, and will not be happy campers, nor will you be.

If you have not considered it, and you have the space available, I would recommend you swap out your existing two 12 volt batteries in parallel for two "golf cart" type 6 volt batteries in series. Two standard golf cart type batteries (I like Trojan T105's but due to cost have been using Costco equals) will almost always give you more capacity than two 12 volt batteries in parallel. A Honda ei 1000 generator, quiet and efficient, will keep them well charged when you need it, and only weighs 30 pounds or so.

Then, look at your lighting load. If your AS has incandescent lights get rid of them and use only fluorescent or LED units. BTW, there is a lot of hype about LED being more efficient and using almost no power. The best of them are only slightly more efficient in terms of light output per watt of consumed power than existing fluorescent lighting, and are much more costly. Yes, low light output LED's will use less power, but produce far less light than you may desire. For now, fluorescent lights give you the most light for the lowest cost, and lowest current use from your batteries.
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:46 AM   #12
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RG,

Your plan is very doable, like I mentioned above when I did basically the same thing with our 63 Safari it worked fine for 18 Seasons. Basically doubling our staying power, with two deep cycle marine batts we had power for 2+ daze, with no other conservation measures.

With our Classic I get 3 1/2 to 4.
2 Grp 27 100a Lifeline's
IOTA IQ4 converter.
The conservation methods are passive in nature, interior LED's and awareness of what your goals are.

We boondock almost exclusively in forest CG's and the 2000i is an integral part of our plan and we use it accordingly, I don't understand the reluctance of some who have them to use them. Much more cost effective than most other options.
It's rare that we would run the genset JUST to charge the batts, half hour of housecleaning and meal prep once in awhile is usually enough.

Bob
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:19 PM   #13
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I wasnt talking about 4 12v in parallel. Wanted 2 2x12v parallel banks and use one to 50% then switch to the other. Thinking about a nice plastic truck toolbox to hold them and hook them up on arrival use to 50% then go back to the trailer batteries. For longer stays charge the bank not being used off the generator with a nice charger.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:22 PM   #14
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Road Geezer,
I contemplated moving my single Trojan battery out of the battery box on the front left side of the trailer and on to the tongue when it eventually needs replacement. I have a compartment between the frame rails now and will have a local machine shop cut it out and build a deeper box to hold the two grp. 27 batteries. This will make it much easier to check rather than pulling them out of the current battery box. I considered what you are thinking about and do not see a problem since you are just adding to the battery bank and can charge seperately from the other batteries if needed.
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Old 09-05-2011, 03:19 PM   #15
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The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1). check this site out.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:29 AM   #16
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Thank you all for your comments/advice.

A little more background, for what it's worth. We dry camp a lot along the Northern CA coast where even in summer, days and nights are cool, many times cold. We use the heater most every day in the morning and evenings to take off the chill inside. We use the ceiling lights minimally and the TV--television-- never. We can get just about a full day from the two batteries that came with our AS before the monitor goes blinking red. I'm reluctant to completely rely on our Yamaha 2000i, quiet as it is, because we're not always around the TT during mid day, and we simply don't like the noise anyway.

I got the idea for accessing additional capacity thru the umbilical when one time out of frustration with the short charge life of the TT batteries, I reconnected the umbilical to our TV. That seemed to give us enough additional capacity but at the risk of a dead TV battery, which happened recently when I inadvertently left an outside light on overnight. The next morning, not wanting to call AAA, I found that I could actually recharge the TV battery along with the TT's batteries by keeping the umbilical connected when I fired up the Yamaha which was connected thru the the shore power cable. After an hour, all three batteries were charged.

I'm looking for a simple, low cost solution, and this approach, if it will work, doesn't require modifying anything inside the TT. If I find that I can't charge the additional batteries thru the umbilical, I do have a golf cart battery charger gathering dust in the garage.

If I end up trying this approach, I'll post a message with my experience.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:47 AM   #17
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Some Airstreams have been delivered with batteries that have been abused on the dealer lot—perhaps run down well below 50% many times before being charged again. That may be your problem.

But, you can upgrade from the OEM Series 24 batteries to Series 27 by modifying the battery box. This will give you more capacity. Or 2 golf cart batteries will give you even more, but will require raising the door on the battery box. High quality AGM's cost a lot, but last much longer. A better converter will charge them in a better way as the OEM converter will overcharge them.

Having extra batteries in the truck bed seems like a pain after a while. They are heavy, bulky and get in the way of all the other things that land in the bed.

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Old 09-06-2011, 12:04 PM   #18
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re: "doubling your bank to 400ah from 200ah by bringing another set of 27s in a battery box in truck bed (my plan) would seem to give you twice as much battery time right? ... probably 1.5-2days to 50%. ...campground for fri-sat-sun. So by saturday morning my batteries are dead."

Yes, doubling the battery bank will double capacity, but that isn't the problem described here - which is a common one.

The description says the current situation barely covers one night. The goal is to cover two plus full days. Nominal reserve should provide for double that. What that implies is that the current battery situation is short by at least a factor of 4. Doubling batteries won't solve that problem.

re: "High quality AGM's cost a lot, but last much longer" -- the best data I have seen indicates costs at least double that of wet cell but life only 1.5 times longer.

Quote:
I'm looking for a simple, low cost solution, and this approach, if it will work, doesn't require modifying anything inside the TT.
What works is to change how you do things. Keep the furnace off or very low at night. Minimize electrical energy usage. Keep your batteries properly maintained (this is a biggie). Use a genset to be able to recharge your batteries and keep them at a good charge level.

As you note, the topic keeps appearing in these forums. Occasionally you'll find someone with a quarter ton or more of battery - often installed contra to code - and a full roof of solar but in most cases, you'll find that folks solve their battery problems first by upgrading the converter to one that knows about proper battery charging and maintenance, second by energy conservation equipment and habits, and third with a genset.

This isn't the solution many envision in their dreams so there tends to be an expensive trial and error learning process. Those who can learn from others can avoid some of that expense. That isn't as easy as it sounds as dreams don't die they just get set aside for the expediency of reality until, maybe, something will come along someday to help them out.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:54 PM   #19
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Road Geezer, I'm surprised that leaving the umbilical connected to your tow vehicle drained your TV battery. We have had two pickups that we used to tow our Bambi, a 1978 Chevy and a 2008 Tundra, both of which had a relay that disconnected power to the trailer when the vehicle ignition was off. Does your TV have a relay in line with the "hot lead" that supplies 12 volts to your Airstream?

Regarding the original batteries that came with our Airstream, the first one died after about 12 months; and the second one failed the following year, after about 20 months. We have had much better luck with the Optima Blue Tops that replaced the original batteries. Also, we use a marine battery isolator switch and use only one battery at a time. That way, when one gets low, we switch to the other one, which is still fully charged. Plus, we run our generator twice a day -- during breakfast, and again at dinner time.

To reduce the noise and exhaust fumes, I usually lock the generator to a tree or the picnic table, as far away from the trailer as the shore power cord will reach (under the picnic table also helps to hide it a little bit, and provides shelter from rain and weather). We can barely hear it running, and other campers that are able to hear it can't tell which site the noise is coming from (we've asked them). We've even asked if the noise was bothersome, and most have said that they couldn't hear it (sometimes, because they were running their generator, too).

Also, we boondock occasionally; and there's no one there to hear it, except us.

Since you already bit the bullet and bought a Yamaha, I'd recommend that you use it more often. It took us several years to decide that we actually needed a generator. However, now that we have it, there are many more camping opportunities available besides KOA. Dispersed forest camping is our first choice when we aren't on the road headed somewhere.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:46 AM   #20
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Bryan im actually taking your advice (and others) i think one of my main issues is that my batteries are not being charged properly with the factory converter. Im looking at having a 3stage put in while it is in for some work.


Im still getting an extra battery bank though
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