Can Generators Run Both AC's While Boondocking?

[turk123]

In the last week I purchase some parts for the install of the easy start.

To begin with I got some larger assorted heat shrink adhesive tube as requested by Mateo.

Here is a link to the tubing:

http://a.co/dMRHsvY

I also purchased the proper tool to crimp butt splices. This one is less than half of the good Ancor tool, and I have to say, very well made. I've always used the simple $7 crimper you get in the kit with the splicing connectors, but this one really is worth the money and will do a far superior job with it's ratcheting grip. Perfect pressure each time.

http://a.co/2F4LCzz

I went to McMaster Carr for the Butt slices:

Multi-Way Heat-Shrink Crimp-On Butt Splices 10-12 and 14-16

https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/123/796/=16n2qrf

These accommodate the difference in wire size and are a bit more expensive, but you only need to buy a few.

Here are the caps:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/123/799/=16n2ryp

I bought larger ones to accommodate the three wires. Interestingly, the cheap crimper works better on the caps as the good tool is too wide and will not squeeze these.

Crimp-on Wire Splicing Connectors
for 18-8 Wire Gauge
7242K65

I also bought some two-part epoxy to fill the caps after the wires are crimped. The heat shrink tubing could be used here, but the epoxy makes for a VERY solid splice! I did a test cap that I can post a picture of later.

I've got some year-end accounting to do with my business so the actual work will be done later. Probably in a few weeks when it warms up. I'll post everything here with pictures.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by turk123

In the last week I purchase some parts for the install of the easy start....

Excellent choices and sourcing there, Turk123. You're now ready to do the install with the wire connections in the open space.

After all of the black enclosure EasyStart 364s are used up and installs can no longer be done like I showed in my Airstream/Dometic Penguin II PDF report, your photos and posts will be the model for installing the IP65 EasyStart 364 into the Dometic Penguin II going forward. Thanks for blazing the trail for everyone. DST begins this coming weekend. Come on, springtime! .

[mythbuster88]

I too am waiting for Turk123 for the Micro-Air modification.

We need a video production crew to document his install.

I tried Colonial AS in Jersey, AAP in Virginia, and a marine outfit in Wilmington NC, none of which would provide a quote for a Micro-Air install.
I may be forced up onto the AS roof, something I don't wish to do.

RC

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

I too am waiting for Turk123 for the Micro-Air modification.

We need a video production crew to document his install.

I tried Colonial AS in Jersey, AAP in Virginia, and a marine outfit in Wilmington NC, none of which would provide a quote for a Micro-Air install.
I may be forced up onto the AS roof, something I don't wish to do.

RC

Mythbuster88 - Thanks for the dealer feedback. I find it very surprising that AAP in Virginia wouldn't quote you. They buy stuff from us all the time and they're one of our few, long-standing dealers who do most of their business in coach applications, and not in marine. Did you talk to Fred Pickering at AAP, or someone else? I can intervene if you wish since there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to help you.

[lsbrodsky]

Since you are in Raleigh, you might give Capital City Customs 919-772-3005 a call. Although they do rebuilds, they work on some of the trailers in our WBCCI club.

Larry

[mythbuster88]

Mr. Micro-Air,

The last email I sent was to Fred Pickering at AAP on Feb13, it went like this :

"
Fred,

This is on a new 2016 30' airstream international.
The advertised part numbers for the the two roof tops are
1) Dometic 6+51816C751C0

2)Dometic 651815C751C0

So it looks like one is a 651815, and the other is a 651816?
Anyway thats whats on the paper I have.
One is a supposed to be a 13.5K, and the other is a 15K.

Our plans are to drive by on the I95 at whatever time it takes to get there from Colonial RV in New Jersey on Saint Patricks Day, 3/17/2017, or Saturday 3/18/201, Saturday seems more reasonable.

I was looking at (2) Easy Start 364s.

Thanks. I hope you are having as pretty weather as we are!

RC"

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

Mr. Micro-Air,

The last email I sent was to Fred Pickering at AAP on Feb13, it went like this :

"
Fred,

This is on a new 2016 30' airstream international.
The advertised part numbers for the the two roof tops are
1) Dometic 6+51816C751C0

2)Dometic 651815C751C0

So it looks like one is a 651815, and the other is a 651816?
Anyway thats whats on the paper I have.
One is a supposed to be a 13.5K, and the other is a 15K.

Our plans are to drive by on the I95 at whatever time it takes to get there from Colonial RV in New Jersey on Saint Patricks Day, 3/17/2017, or Saturday 3/18/201, Saturday seems more reasonable.

I was looking at (2) Easy Start 364s.

Thanks. I hope you are having as pretty weather as we are!

RC"

Did he ever respond?

[mythbuster88]

Mr. Micro-Air,

We were going back and forth, and then he did not respond.
So I let it go.


RC

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

We were going back and forth, and then he did not respond.
So I let it go.
RC

Thanks, RC. We apologize for your disappointment, but I do have good news. I was able to contact Fred this afternoon and just got confirmation that he does want to install EasyStarts. Please contact him at the e-mail you were using, or contact his staff member, Dana Young, at dana@aap.com, or call 804-633-9454 to schedule your appointment. Hopefully, you'll be able to schedule a visit per your original plan on your way past AAP on I-95.

[mythbuster88]

Mr. Micro-Air,

So Fred at AAP got back with me and I am waiting for his quote. Not in any rush. We expect to motor out of Raleigh NC in early summer.

Thanks for your help!

RC

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

Mr. Micro-Air,

So Fred at AAP got back with me and I am waiting for his quote. Not in any rush. We expect to motor out of Raleigh NC in early summer.

Thanks for your help!

RC

This thread is better than watching the evening news or a Soap! The suspense, the drama, and then the happy ending! I thank Mateo for being so vigilant and helpful on the Forum!

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

This thread is better than watching the evening news or a Soap! The suspense, the drama, and then the happy ending! I thank Matteo for being so vigilant and helpful on the Forum!

You're all most certainly welcome. Doing my best to keep the EasyStart drama to a minimum!

[Troutboy]

My easy start arrives tomorrow. Can you run one AC off 20 amp shore Power? I also have a home generator that will deliver 30 amp if needed.

Just wondering for the install....

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by Troutboy

My easy start arrives tomorrow. Can you run one AC off 20 amp shore Power? I also have a home generator that will deliver 30 amp if needed.
Just wondering for the install....

Yes, you can. The total load from one 15k A/C will be around 13.5A, steady-state. The starting surge for the same system with EasyStart, after it has completed its 5-start learning process, will be below 18A (down from the mid-40s).

[turk123]

For all that are following, I do want to get this installation started soon. We had 4" of snow here in Ohio and the temps went down to 15 degrees the other night. Not getting me up there in these temperatures. So as soon as you see 50-60 degrees in Ohio, look for me up there.

I will document it very well with pictures and maybe even a video or two. Here are the tools I bought. Also, a test using one of the caps. I had some old epoxy laying around so I used it (bought new for the project). I just stuck some random wire in. The wire on the pelican is #14 and Easystart is 10.


Turk

[mythbuster88]

For the Micro-Air in question, Fred from AAP in Virginia quoted $286 for parts and $100 for labor.
The part number is: AAP-MAC-ASSY-364-X36.
So we will do that install whenever the real Spring arrives. Current predictions are for 5" snow on 3/14 followed by three very cold days.
This is NOT Los Angeles.

We were supposed to pick up the AS at Colonial in New Jersey on 3/17 but not if the roads have any snow or ice.

In the meantime we were able to get two EU2000s running on propane situated in our truck.
RC

[carl2591]

I have been reading where installing a "hard start kit" on RV AC's help when using lower power generators due to the high LRA (lock rotor amps) they need to get started..

the hard starts help give a nice boost of power at start up.. We used to install them on home AC system that were getting older but the owner did not want to replace them yet.. saw some systems go for another 4-5 yrs before they bit the dust at 25 yrs plus old..

Originally Posted by lewster

RV air conditioners typically operate at 14-16 running amps. A pair of Honda 2000s would just be passable for operation of 2 A/Cs, but they will not have the overhead capacity to provide for the 50+ amp transient starting load required by the compressor of each unit.

You would need a pair of 3000s for running 2 roof A/C units, or a robust lithium bank and 3000 watt hybrid inverter with a pair of 2000s. I would think that the 3000s would be significantly less expensive that the lithium system.

And yes, your 50 amp shore connection will enable you to operate both A/Cs at the same time from a proper 50 amp shore connection. You could even run a third if you had one.....just like the large diesel motor homes do every day here in FL

[lewster]

Originally Posted by carl2591

I have been reading where installing a "hard start kit" on RV AC's help when using lower power generators due to the high LRA (lock rotor amps) they need to get started..

the hard starts help give a nice boost of power at start up.. We used to install them on home AC system that were getting older but the owner did not want to replace them yet.. saw some systems go for another 4-5 yrs before they bit the dust at 25 yrs plus old..

If you look at the U-tube video that Matteo from Micro-Air posted regarding the Easy Start, you will see definitive video evidence that a hard start kit will do NOTHING to help lower the starting amperage requirements of your RV air conditioner. Besides, ALL Dometic RV air conditioners already HAVE a start capacitor and PTCR, along with the run capacitor.

After many discussions with Matteo on the technical details of their device and viewing his installation video several times, I am firmly convinced that the Easy Start will definitely provide a much lower starting transient amperage load for any RV air conditioner unit. The unit that was used in the video showed a decrease in LRA from a measured 44 amps prior to installation do 17 amps once the device 'learned' the unit's requirements after the 5th start.

You should check out that video.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Originally Posted by mythbuster88

For the Micro-Air in question, Fred from AAP in Virginia quoted $286 for parts and $100 for labor.
The part number is: AAP-MAC-ASSY-364-X36.

Seems reasonable.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by carl2591

I have been reading where installing a "hard start kit" on RV AC's help when using lower power generators due to the high LRA (lock rotor amps) they need to get started..

the hard starts help give a nice boost of power at start up.. We used to install them on home AC system that were getting older but the owner did not want to replace them yet.. saw some systems go for another 4-5 yrs before they bit the dust at 25 yrs plus old..

Originally Posted by lewster

If you look at the U-tube video that Matteo from Micro-Air posted regarding the Easy Start, you will see definitive video evidence that a hard start kit will do NOTHING to help lower the starting amperage requirements of your RV air conditioner. Besides, ALL Dometic RV air conditioners already HAVE a start capacitor and PTCR, along with the run capacitor.

After many discussions with Matteo on the technical details of their device and viewing his installation video several times, I am firmly convinced that the Easy Start will definitely provide a much lower starting transient amperage load for any RV air conditioner unit. The unit that was used in the video showed a decrease in LRA from a measured 44 amps prior to installation do 17 amps once the device 'learned' the unit's requirements after the 5th start.

You should check out that video.

Thanks, Lew. You are spot on, and yes, people should watch the YouTube video where we did the side-by-side comparison testing of the hard start versus the EasyStart. The results speak for themselves. But, since I like to always consider the opposite arguments, and since I want to be fair to Carl2591 and to all the other people out there who may have met with success by using a hard start kit, here's the rest of the story, when they do work, and when they don't...

Hard Starts on Residential Systems with Utility Power
As Carl2591 stated, hard starts were originally developed for old, residential systems whose compressors are getting "tired" and having trouble starting without any starting components (i.e. no start cap and no start relay). A hard start kit is essentially all of this in one package. Adding it to a compressor that just has a run cap will most certainly increase the starting torque, and perhaps allow the compressor to start when it otherwise would not have. But, as you well know, the hard start accomplishes this by directing more current to the start winding during startup, which actually increases the net current drawn by the compressor during that period. This of course works great when you have a utility power source with unlimited power behind it! Would an EasyStart have worked better in this case? Absolutely. But was an EasyStart necessary to resolve this particular problem? No, it wasn't. In this case where utility power is the only source, the hard start solves the problem.

Hard Starts on an RV A/C with Generator Power
Now, consider an RV rooftop A/C with a factory-installed hard start or one without to which you add an aftermarket hard start like I tested in the YouTube video. In this case, once again the hard start increases the compressor's starting torque by directing more current to the start winding, thus resulting in a net increase in the total starting current. The effect of increasing the starting torque and starting amps does have a subtle effect on the starting time. It causes the duration of the start to decrease. That is, the now increased starting amps will be applied for a shorter period of time. So for some generator and A/C combinations, this slightly shortened duration combined with a slightly higher current demand may allow a generator that previously couldn't handle the starting spike to "ride through it" without experiencing as much of a collapse in output voltage. So, the effect of the hard start is subtle, and it could make a marginally non-working situation work more often. For example, there are a lot of people who own smaller towables that use the Coleman Polar Cub or Mach 8 9200 BTU models. These models often start on a Honda EU2000i with a hard start kit added. Also, the more common 13.5kBTU and 15kBTU rooftops might start better on a 2500W or 3000W generator with a hard start kit installed. But, I don't know of anybody who has succeeded in getting a 13.5k or 15kBTU system to reliably start and run on a 2000W generator. Also, everyone who uses the hard start will likely have to power manage their entire RV more than they would like in order to make sure the A/C will reliably start. Case and point, we've actually sold dozens of EasyStarts to customers who already had working hard start solutions (as described above) because they wanted the worry-free reliability and the extra auxiliary load capacity that EasyStart provides, even if they really didn't need it to make starting the A/C feasible to begin with. Hopefully, I explained this clearly.

Summary
So, if you are fortunate enough to make your particular A/C start and run on your particular generator with a hard start, that's great! More power to you! (No pun intended ). But if your A/C and generator combination is out of reach of what a hard start provides, isn't reliable enough with the hard start, and/or you want all of the other benefits that we have discussed, EasyStart is the right solution for you.

Thanks for everyone's attention. This is a great forum and we at Micro-Air are very happy to be a part of it.