Battery Options - Lifeline

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Why does your rationalization use two Costco's and one BB?
I believe the OP has a 2 battery AS
Space, cost...usage?

Bob
����

Originally Posted by waninae39

~~
some think that lion are too expensive. If you assume that they will last twice as long as the lead acid AND
they can go down to 20% capacity vs 50% of lead acid, thus you would need more AH of lead acid than Lion for the same operating conditions.
thus the price delta is small if any

CAPEX alone is rarely the right decision

TCO= CAPEX + annual OPEX

you need to calculate the Total Cost of Operation

As you see, waninae39 is trying to make the case on TCO, and I don't think the numbers are there. You can certainly make an argument that $1898 worth of Battle Borns will run even longer, and talk about weight and charge time and charge cycles those are all excellent reasons to go with the more exotic batteries. I started where Airstream starts... 80 usable amp-hours of battery (which Airstream provides with 2 flooded Group24s, and which would only require 1 $949 Battle Born module.)

The PERFORMANCE argument for more-modern batteries is a pretty good one, and like in so many other arenas, higher performance ain't free.

Since he's talking about bringing the batteries into the temperature-controlled space of the trailer, he's not starting with a factory battery box to fill anyway, so I started with the available amp-hours rather than assuming 2 li-ion batteries, which just scales up all the numbers, or makes it a comparison more about capacity than cost.

[ROBERT CROSS]

CAPEX alone is rarely the right decision

TCO= CAPEX + annual OPEX


Now I understand, we went to different schools together. 😳



Bob
🇺🇸

[AirMiles]

Even if I could justify $2000 worth of batteries with increased amp hours and life cycles, I’d be fearful that one “senior moment” could cost $2000. If I accidentally murder my wet cells, I'm out $200 and can run right over to the nearest Walmart, Costco, Sams Club, Auto zone, Batteries Plus or 10,000 other retailers and replace my batteries that same day. For me, a $200 loss is a bad day, a $2000 loss would be a bad month.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

Even if I could justify $2000 worth of batteries with increased amp hours and life cycles, I’d be fearful that one “senior moment” could cost $2000. If I accidentally murder my wet cells, I'm out $200 and can run right over to the nearest Walmart, Costco, Sams Club, Auto zone, Batteries Plus or 10,000 other retailers and replace my batteries that same day. For me, a $200 loss is a bad day, a $2000 loss would be a bad month.

Your not alone...but really, it's all about money here...do you want to "take care" of your power system and use your stock or Costco/Wallmart batteries and take more vacations with that money you aren't spending, or do you have "expendable" cash and don't care...I would love to be in the latter category....by the way..

[pteck]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

The PERFORMANCE argument for more-modern batteries is a pretty good one, and like in so many other arenas, higher performance ain't free.

Actually, I beg to differ. In the end, it's all about capacity. Devices don't care where the power comes from, whether lead acid, LifePO4, nuclear, coal.

It's easy to do better than 2x Group 24 batteries, but it's very hard to do it for any less.

People get distracted by what it means to be better. Performance? The only thing that truly matters here is CAPACITY. A single BB 100Ah battery usable down to 20% is not great capacity. In fact, it's worse capacity than the 2x Group 24s. Because in a pinch, you can go down to much further than the recommended DoD. Which might be a lifesaver in the middle of a cold cold night. Then one can go and discuss TCO, CAPEX...still won't ever cost what the BB does in the long run even with the occasional abuse.

The real winner here is 2x 6V golf car batts. For minimal more investment than 2x 24s, one now has a 225+ Ah battery. One that has at least 2.5X the cycle life of a standard 12V lead acid. Can be deeply dicharged to 80% (180Ah+ usable) when the need presents itself. And still have great usable life.

A oversight or senior moment won't cause a huge loss of investment, and Costco may just cover most of the cost of the incident.

[waninae39]

this is my pro/con list.

2x lion can do the job of a 3x-4x similar size lead acid

• most all lion have battery mgmt built in, if not ext ctrl available
• voltage is flat down to 20% then drops off
• the rated AH capacity is a conservative figure, must do more and most do 2X for < 30 secs
• they are lighter for the same AH rating
• do not age early under heavy load
• they do not out gas
• can last 2x longer total usable lifetime than a similar size lead acid

lead acid

• no builtin battery mgmt, often no external one exists
• voltage drops as capacity is used, not flat like lion
• battery life decreased the more often you take a heavy load
• must be kept outside
• can off gas

[68 Overlander]

Originally Posted by SilverHouseDreams

TCO and ROI arguments from AS owners is somewhat comical, just ask any SOB owner.

So true and I'm just a guilty. People are willing to shell out big $$$ for a "camper" and then balk or rationalize the price of arguably the most important component. Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

Even if I could justify $2000 worth of batteries with increased amp hours and life cycles, I’d be fearful that one “senior moment” could cost $2000. If I accidentally murder my wet cells, I'm out $200 and can run right over to the nearest Walmart, Costco, Sams Club, Auto zone, Batteries Plus or 10,000 other retailers and replace my batteries that same day. For me, a $200 loss is a bad day, a $2000 loss would be a bad month.

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Your not alone...but really, it's all about money here...do you want to "take care" of your power system and use your stock or Costco/Wallmart batteries and take more vacations with that money you aren't spending, or do you have "expendable" cash and don't care...I would love to be in the latter category....by the way..

Originally Posted by pteck

Actually, I beg to differ. In the end, it's all about capacity. Devices don't care where the power comes from, whether lead acid, LifePO4, nuclear, coal.

It's easy to do better than 2x Group 24 batteries, but it's very hard to do it for any less.

People get distracted by what it means to be better. Performance? The only thing that truly matters here is CAPACITY. A single BB 100Ah battery usable down to 20% is not great capacity. In fact, it's worse capacity than the 2x Group 24s. Because in a pinch, you can go down to much further than the recommended DoD. Which might be a lifesaver in the middle of a cold cold night. Then one can go and discuss TCO, CAPEX...still won't ever cost what the BB does in the long run even with the occasional abuse.

The real winner here is 2x 6V golf car batts. For minimal more investment than 2x 24s, one now has a 225+ Ah battery. One that has at least 2.5X the cycle life of a standard 12V lead acid. Can be deeply dicharged to 80% (180Ah+ usable) when the need presents itself. And still have great usable life.

A oversight or senior moment won't cause a huge loss of investment, and Costco may just cover most of the cost of the incident.

Perfect examples....😂
“If your happy with what your using…it’s adequate.
If other people are unhappy….it’s not”


Bob
🇺🇸

[rmkrum]

Bob, that assumes that I actually listen to other people. I’ll claim the voices in my head drown them out. (Grin. Sanity is optional around here in the “Department of Overkill Engineering”)

[ROBERT CROSS]

"The hardest thing about Airstreaming is clearing your head and accepting how others feel it’s supposed to be done…..😂"
RLC

Bob
🇺🇸

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by pteck

The real winner here is 2x 6V golf car batts. For minimal more investment than 2x 24s, one now has a 225+ Ah battery. One that has at least 2.5X the cycle life of a standard 12V lead acid. Can be deeply dicharged to 80% (180Ah+ usable) when the need presents itself. And still have great usable life.

Not all situations are equal, for those of us with Bambi’s that only accommodate a single G24 by factory spec, and some may squeeze two in...between the weight impact on the trailer, which is already pushing limits for a single axle, and factor in the impact on tongue weight.

In my case, being able to have the option have having 160Ah useable wasn’t an option via any other path in my 22FB. Further, the avoidance of buying a new TV will buy a lot of batteries. So if you want to talk about TCO and ROI, seems my $3k in overpriced batteries just saved me $60K.

[ROBERT CROSS]

...to actually see the folks I spoke with.👍

Informative also...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s64CuK5Yy_o

Bob
🇺🇸

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

...to actually see the folks I spoke with.��

Informative also...

Bob
����

Good video...thanks. I just got the 6V Trojans few months ago; not ready to give up and go lithium just yet..but perhaps next turn if these don't last.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The BB Lithiums run from 100% down to 0% at a C/5 rate clock in at 5,000 cycles before they hit 80% capacity. At a C/1 rate they hit 3,000 cycles. Run a lead acid at C/1 and you don't get very many cycles running to 50% and pretty much none running to 100%.

You should see *way* more than an 8 year life on BB's in any setting that you can get 2 years out of a set of discount brand lead acid's.

Bob

[pteck]

That's fine and dandy, and academic. Who's drawing at a C/1 rate anyhow? Running A/C isn't really a viable application anyhow.

Just like how people mention that voltage drop is flat. Devices don't much care. It's actually a con, as it takes more sophisticated strategies to measure DoD.

[ROBERT CROSS]

^
I can't even draw hey camel.
Please delivery, we froze more people, but Don't understand what's available you're talking about. C1 building, do your duty It's too early.

BoB
🇺🇸