Batteries-So Confused-What's easy to swap to?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Just reading through some info on other lithium batteries. I should clarify that the above "protections" appear to be specific to the BB implementation of a BMS. It is not at all clear that other outfits have gone quite as far. ( = if they have their manuals and spec's don't say so....)

Bob

[waninae39]

i easily swapped out old lead acid with lion from battle born.

the victron BMV 712 allows for easy programming from LA to Lion. just set all the unique parameters
it also integrates with the other victron parts on inet or bluetooth on the phone

[PKI]

When I contacted BB tech support, they recommended the PD4655LI set to the lithium 14.4 volt setting. A fellow who was working on the install of his lithium system sent me a message suggesting that the internal battery management systems would suffer if they were hammered consistently with 14.4 volts. He was using cells sourced directly from China, but that position is supported by what Bob said about using a lower float voltage.

So ideal may well be a converter upgrade that is temp monitored and programmed to deliver optimal charge and maintenance profiles. The original PD4655 can be manually set to run 14.4 volts for a short period of time. Then it drops back to a lower charge voltage. That is a manual way to achieve the two different voltage profiles and is not an impossible approach, but certainly less than ideal if you want to use your rig instead of constantly manage the systems.

The approach we are using is to run the PD4655LI at 14.4 volts as recommended by BB tech support and disconnect the converter (store mode switch) from the battery bank when the battery monitor shows 100%. That gives the BMSs a rest.

As with most RVing decisions, it depends. Pat

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by Piggy Bank

Batteries and the many different set ups people use seem confusing to me.

We have a 2019 Flying Cloud 27.

We aren't having great performance with the batteries that came with the rig.

If we want to change them out, can someone explain in simple terms what the options are?

(We don't have solar in place (rig does have factory pre-wire))

Is there a better type of battery that can be changed to that doesn't need to have water added but that will fit in the battery box we have and work with all of the components we have now?

If not, what are the options?

What makes some options better than others?

Teach me your ways!

First, you need to tell us what problems you are having. Is the battery going dead every day even when not in use, or not lasting through the night when the furnace is running, or you just want a battery bank that last four days instead of one to two days.

Keep in mind, charging is required every day or two, regardless of the battery you choose.

If you are thinking about AGM instead of lead acid, that will not add capacity. The specs for those show they almost equal.

If you are thinking about using 2 6v batteries, that does add some capacity but not a lot. And it also adds weight.

The other options cost $$$$

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

First, you need to tell us what problems you are having. Is the battery going dead every day even when not in use, or not lasting through the night when the furnace is running, or you just want a battery bank that last four days instead of one to two days.

Keep in mind, charging is required every day or two, regardless of the battery you choose.

If you are thinking about AGM instead of lead acid, that will not add capacity. The specs for those show they almost equal.

If you are thinking about using 2 6v batteries, that does add some capacity but not a lot. And it also adds weight.

The other options cost $$$$

Hi

It *all* costs. You can easily get into the "I can buy a new car for that" price range with some of these options. Just as wrapping that new car around a tree within the first month of ownership, these batteries can all be destroyed. It is well worth it to go over what the intended use actually *is* !!! For some use cases the *clear* winner is "whatever is on sale at Costco this week".

Bob

[Jacob D]

[QUOTE=Piggy Bank;2306754]Batteries and the many different set ups people use seem confusing to me.

We have a 2019 Flying Cloud 27.

We aren't having great performance with the batteries that came with the rig.

If we want to change them out, can someone explain in simple terms what the options are?

(We don't have solar in place (rig does have factory pre-wire))

Is there a better type of battery that can be changed to that doesn't need to have water added but that will fit in the battery box we have and work with all of the components we have now?
,
If not, what are the options?


Our experience with a vintage trailer may not be relevant to you but here goes. We replaced our single 12v wet cell every year for years until I found AGM's at our local Sam's Club. A simple swap took about 15 minutes and 6 years later that battery still meets our needs. No water added and one visual inspection twice a year is all it needs so far. We seldom boon dock and if we do it is for one night. The biggest drain on the battery is the tongue jack which of course is not continuous. There are no parasite drains if all lights are turned off. Good luck in your quest.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Just a note - in a more modern trailer, there are indeed parasitic drains even with the lights turned off. Depending on what options are on the (modern) trailer these can get up to as much as 1/4 A (as reported in a couple of threads on the forum). A drain that high (if the reports are correct) would get you to 6AH per day. That puts your 80AH stock batteries at 50% in about 2 weeks and totally flat in a month.

That kind of treatment will destroy batteries pretty quickly. If this sort of thing is a common issue on your trailer, either change your habits (= spend $15 on a full disconnect switch and use it) or go with "on sale at Costco".

Bob

[lrskfalls]

Photobum - Did you change out your converter to use the Battleborn lithium batteries?

[Piggy Bank]

Thanks for all of your replies.

Situation is that we bought our 2019 rig early summer after our previous rig was damaged in an accident. Our previous rig was a 2017 25 foot FC.
On that rig we didn't seem to have issues with the batteries.

The 2017 unit had some electrical differences from the 2019. Most significantly to my eyes in that the 2017 had separate wall outlets for inverter and standard. Now on the 2019 there is only 1 outlet and the system somehow switches over if you are not on shore power. I don't know if there is more parasitic draw on the 2019, but the batteries have not been great and been dying throughout the summer.

Sounds like step 1 should be to take these current batteries out and take to an Interstate dealer and get them tested/swapped out on warranty if we can. And then store those new ones on our winter charger and see how we are in the spring.



Step 2 would be to add in a cut switch to cut off power when we are in storage.

Step 3 would be to consider changing to the 6 volt basic batteries.

I still don't understand what people are saying about changing the stock converter.

Why, how complicated is this, how expensive is this, how important is this if we do sometimes camp in national parks (no hookups) and may want to run the furnace?

Also is any of the decline in what we found between our 2017 rig and 2019 rig related to the new wire schematic and not having the separate wall outlets when using battery power?

[PKI]

2019 should have a multi stage converter. Consequently, it will not boil your batteries like some older converters are believed to do. You only need to consider a new converter if you change to Lithium cells. Pat

edit add - Search on amp hour budget. Establish your power usage. That tells you the story. If you use more, you have to charge more. If you are not on shore power and using electronic equipment, you are using power from the battery bank. If it is 120 volt elec tropics, it uses more power, because there is some loss associated with then inverter making 120 volts out of 12 volt power storage. Your solar will help charge the battery bank, but not kit you are in the shade.

[demijac]

Don't know much about batteries or the associated lingo but we know our usage criteria benchmark: boondock for two nights, use both TV's for hours each night and run the furnace as necessary while we're awake. We could do that with Lifeline AGM's for awhile but wore them out in less than three years.
We knew lithium would be an improvement but we were unwilling to install them inside the trailer to circumvent their freezing temperature limitations.

In August, we made the switch because the newest generation lithium batteries work just fine in freezing temperatures and have a small enough footprint to fit in the existing external battery box. We bought two LifeBlue lithium batteries. This required the installation of a new converter and solar controller that could be programmed to support lithium batteries. Total cost around $2,700. As an added bonus, we can now check actual remaining battery capacity from our iPhones using the LifeBlue app.

This has been life changing. We no longer worry about battery usage. Period. The peace of mind is priceless. We can take these batteries down to 20% capacity without doing harm to the batteries. The lowest we've taken them during our two-day boondocking benchmark is around 40%. Worst case, we'll use about 35% capacity a night and get back at least 10% of that from solar the next day.

We had the work done at AM Solar in Oregon. They take a consultative approach to understanding your needs and have a variety of technologies they can recommend, sell and install based on your usage criteria and budget and they stand behind their work.

In six years of full-timing, this has been, by far, the best thing we've done to support our Airstream habit.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by demijac

Don't know much about batteries or the associated lingo but we know our usage criteria benchmark: boondock for two nights, use both TV's for hours each night and run the furnace as necessary while we're awake. We could do that with Lifeline AGM's for awhile but wore them out in less than three years.
We knew lithium would be an improvement but we were unwilling to install them inside the trailer to circumvent their freezing temperature limitations.

In August, we made the switch because the newest generation lithium batteries work just fine in freezing temperatures and have a small enough footprint to fit in the existing external battery box. We bought two LifeBlue lithium batteries. This required the installation of a new converter and solar controller that could be programmed to support lithium batteries. Total cost around $2,700. As an added bonus, we can now check actual remaining battery capacity from our iPhones using the LifeBlue app.

This has been life changing. We no longer worry about battery usage. Period. The peace of mind is priceless. We can take these batteries down to 20% capacity without doing harm to the batteries. The lowest we've taken them during our two-day boondocking benchmark is around 40%. Worst case, we'll use about 35% capacity a night and get back at least 10% of that from solar the next day.

We had the work done at AM Solar in Oregon. They take a consultative approach to understanding your needs and have a variety of technologies they can recommend, sell and install based on your usage criteria and budget and they stand behind their work.

In six years of full-timing, this has been, by far, the best thing we've done to support our Airstream habit.

How much did AM Solar charge to do the install? I ask because I did a similar upgrade to my Avenue class b last month for about the same $2700 you quote using Renogy components. And that was doing it entirely by myself. If you got the whole project done (labor and all) for that price, you got a steal of a deal from AM Solar.

[Kanusport]

You don’t have to switch the converter. You can buy a battle born or renogy or whomever lifepo4 battery and drop it in. You can also use your factory zamp solar port on the trailer tongue by simply switching the leads from the solar port to the battery. Usually this means the fused wire is moved from the positive to the negative and vice versa.
The other thing to do is disconnect the power lead from the tow vehicle so the lifepo4 battery doesn’t hurt the truck. It only takes a few minutes to do all these things and you’ll have the power of the better battery.

This is the cheap and easy way to have lifepo4.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Kanusport

You don’t have to switch the converter. You can buy a battle born or renogy or whomever lifepo4 battery and drop it in. You can also use your factory zamp solar port on the trailer tongue by simply switching the leads from the solar port to the battery. Usually this means the fused wire is moved from the positive to the negative and vice versa.
The other thing to do is disconnect the power lead from the tow vehicle so the lifepo4 battery doesn’t hurt the truck. It only takes a few minutes to do all these things and you’ll have the power of the better battery.

This is the cheap and easy way to have lifepo4.

This is what I'd heard, at least before I looked into doing my lithium install, but it is not the best way to do it. To have the extra battery capacity of lithiums and charge them properly off solar, 30amp, and engine alternator requires upgraded components that have lithium-compatible charging. I already had a lithium-compatible solar controller, so in my case it was approximately $1500 for the batteries, with the additional $1200 going to a DC to DC charger, new 3000W inverter/charger, various cables, fuses, and a State of Charge Monitor to give a true picture of battery charge level.

[Kanusport]

^^
I should have added the above works for me because most if not all my charging is done by my renogy 200 watt solar suitcase with its own charge controller so it properly charges the battery. It’s pretty rare I’m plugged in. If I’m plugged in for extended periods I’d throw the original battery in.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Kanusport

^^
I should have added the above works for me because most if not all my charging is done by my renogy 200 watt solar suitcase with its own charge controller so it properly charges the battery. It’s pretty rare I’m plugged in. If I’m plugged in for extended periods I’d throw the original battery in.

I understand now. My use is different and I set out to make the change as "automatic" as it was before. Wll that and add a bigger inverter for running the microwave.

[Goonies]

I also had trouble with the Interstate batteries that came with my 2019 Flying Cloud 20. From what I understand quite a few trailers are delivered with questionable batteries. I don’t know the condition of my batteries when I took delivery but I remember them having limited capacity.
After putting up with it for a year and a half I knew I had to figure out what the problem was. One of them had a bad cell so it wouldn’t hold a charge and a bank of batteries in parallel is only as strong as the weakest cell.
To test them I removed both batteries and charged them separately monitoring the current and voltage as they were charging. When the current approached zero I removed the charger and let each battery float for a while. When the charger is removed the voltage will start dropping, then level off. A battery life chart will indicate how much life remains. I had one dead and one good battery but there isn’t a very good warranty on these Interstate bats.
So I replaced both with Dyno lead acid batteries which are manufactured in Seattle, primarily for the marine industry. I’ve been using them in my sailboat for years without any problem so I thought I’d give them a try with the Bambi. It is a combo deep cycle / starting battery so there is a little more current capacity available at the surface. I like this feature for running the jack stand and the furnace fan. So far I’m pretty pleased with their performance, but time will tell.
Keeping a charge on the batteries and keeping the plates covered with water makes all the difference.
I like how Nigel Calder describes how to maintain and troubleshoot a battery powered electrical system in his book titled Boatowner’s Mechanical and Electrical Manual.
I do have one Interstate battery with 80% life left if anyone wants it but you may have to wait till spring because I’m going south so I don’t have to run my furnace so much. Cheers!

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by PKI

2019 should have a multi stage converter. Consequently, it will not boil your batteries like some older converters are believed to do. You only need to consider a new converter if you change to Lithium cells. Pat

The consensus on Airforums is that stock converters on 2018 and up Airstreams are multi-stage and therefore do not need replacement. When I purchased my 2018 Airstream, I believed that consensus because the published specifications on the new converter appeared adequate. Then I started using the new multi-stage converter and found out its still inadequate for my dry-camping needs.

The stock converter in my 2018 Airstream is more multi-stage than the old converter in my 2017. It will bulk charge and float charge. Therefore, it will work great for those who typically are connected to shore power and occasionally dry camp while using minimal 12V power. Since this is the way the majority of Airstreams are used, the new converter will work great for the majority of Airstream users. It will not "boil" your batteries if left continuously on shore power, like the old converter, because it will switch to float mode at 13.2V after the battery is fully charged. So what's the problem?

The problem is for those of us who dry camp, or boondock, regularly and use significant amounts of 12V power daily. Boondockers need a way to quickly recharge their batteries while still consuming power each day. The stock converter on a modern Airstream is not capable of quickly recharging a battery because it will not charge at 14.4V. It takes too long at 13.8V to charge a battery while also using power for fans, refrigerators, pumps and lights. Basically, a dry camper with a modern Airstream would need to run their generator continuously during daylight hours to recharge their batteries enough to use the furnace or fantastic fans all night long. This to me is unacceptable. How did I fix this?

The converter upgrade I used is a Progressive Dynamics PD4655L. It costs $200 and replaces the bottom portion of the stock converter. It only takes 30 minutes to install with a screwdriver. Mine will charge batteries up to 14.2V in bulk stage which will quickly (two to four hours) recharge the batteries to between 80% and 90% capacity. It has a button on the charger to "boost" charge at 14.4V for quickly recharging while using generator power. To me, this is a required upgrade for anyone who uses their Airstream frequently while not connected to shore power.

I have solar which charges my batteries on 98% of days so I rarely charge with a generator. But I still wanted this converter upgrade for the 2% of days where I need to charge my batteries with generator power. I wanted a converter that could bring my batteries back to 80 to 90% capacity in a few hours. If you don't mind your generator running all day to recharge your batteries, or don't use much power when dry camping, the Airstream stock converter may work for your needs. But I feel those who need to upgrade their batteries for dry camping also need to upgrade their stock converter to get the full benefit from upgrading their batteries.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Piggy Bank

Thanks for all of your replies.

Situation is that we bought our 2019 rig early summer after our previous rig was damaged in an accident. Our previous rig was a 2017 25 foot FC.
On that rig we didn't seem to have issues with the batteries.

The 2017 unit had some electrical differences from the 2019. Most significantly to my eyes in that the 2017 had separate wall outlets for inverter and standard. Now on the 2019 there is only 1 outlet and the system somehow switches over if you are not on shore power. I don't know if there is more parasitic draw on the 2019, but the batteries have not been great and been dying throughout the summer.

Sounds like step 1 should be to take these current batteries out and take to an Interstate dealer and get them tested/swapped out on warranty if we can. And then store those new ones on our winter charger and see how we are in the spring.



Step 2 would be to add in a cut switch to cut off power when we are in storage.

Step 3 would be to consider changing to the 6 volt basic batteries.

I still don't understand what people are saying about changing the stock converter.

Why, how complicated is this, how expensive is this, how important is this if we do sometimes camp in national parks (no hookups) and may want to run the furnace?

Also is any of the decline in what we found between our 2017 rig and 2019 rig related to the new wire schematic and not having the separate wall outlets when using battery power?

Hi

The "why" part of this needs a bit of a deep dive. The concern is that you will spend a bunch of money and still have exactly the same issues.

Just how fast are the batteries dying?

How long were they charged before they died?

How do you know they were dead?

The "stock" voltage readouts do have some issues. How much of an issue does vary model to model. Parasitic loads do vary trailer to trailer, storing without disconnecting batteries is a bad idea.

Changing batteries around is only going to get you a little bit more capacity. If you want to run the furnace for days with no hookups, you would need a *lot* of capacity. A generator is the low cost option in this case.

===

Your new trailer has an automatic switch that connects the "inverter" outlets to shore power when the inverter is powered off. It has no impact at all on the battery drain in the trailer. It is purely a convenience thing. You no longer need to move plugs around when you fire up the inverter.

====

There is a lot of yack about converters. If you go with a lithium battery setup, you should swap out the converter. It will cost about $200 for that part of the deal if you go "low cost". With stock lead acid batteries (even more so with AGM's) you should be ok with the stock converter.

====

There are two types of batteries that come "stock" on Airstream trailers. If you got the solar package on either of your trailers, you had AGM batteries on that trailer. If it's non-solar, the batteries need to be checked for fluid levels every so often. That would be the first thing to do on your existing set. If they are low, re-fill with distilled water (available at most grocery stores).

===

Stepping back a bit, solar is a very common part of the "answer" for a lot of us. That hasn't been discussed in this thread, but it *is* how a lot of people cope with being off grid for many days at a time.

Bob

[Photobum]

irskfalls,

I had changed it out earlier to a Magnum because I learned that for my charging my computers I wanted a converter that could maintain sine wave current. If I had to do it over again I would have gone with Victron. (BB suggested that the Magnum Inverter/Converter was not the easiest to work with, something I have come to agree with.). As it is I use a Victron 712 unit to watch my power levels.

I am not an electrician, and I went through two iterations of Airstream electrical before I went to Battle Born. I have never even worried about electricity since I put these batteries in.

BB is currently working on the next generation of batteries and I will follow them. I have spent time with them, watched their testing and production, and consider them an exemplary company with a great product and outstanding technical support. That, and the fact that they are the sole American producer of lithium ion batteries makes them a great story. (There are other manufacturers, but their cells are manufactured in China.)