12V converter/battery/monitor upgrade

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by ticki2

According to Iota

"Weekly Equalization For Longer Battery Life
If batteries have not received a "Smart Charge"during a seven-day period , the IQ Controller will switch the DSL charger into a pre-programmed equalization stage to top off the batteries , dissolving any sulfate layer on the battery's internal plates and avoiding stratification. "

I know. Again, you may want to talk to Randy. There are apparently 2 schools of thought (and marketing, perhaps ) relative to equalization methodology and effectiveness. I just kept googling it and googling it till I was sorta satisfied. Also, the manual for my IOTA with INTERNAL IQ-4 does not contain your quote noted above, and the charge cycle chart shows nothing in excess of 2.46V/cell or 14.76V charge rate.

I believe for equalization to be effective, voltage is elevated (must be over 15 volts???? on the external unit???) which provides a very active (boiling for lack of a better word) of the acid solution. This MECHANICALLY breaks up the sulfate which has accumulated on the plates and helps slow accumulation. There is some discussion online, by supposed experts, that this process simply dislodges the crystals and they fall to the bottom of the case. It also is very effective in "de-stratifyling" the acid concentrations within each cell.
There seems to be some controversy whether this short boiling and high voltage has a negative effect on the battery. I think most agree, though, that if this equalization charge has a negative effect, it is certainly less impactful to the battery life than allowing sulfate to accumulate.
As I recall the conversation, Randy didn't think the IQ-4 equalization cycle is as complete or, maybe aggressive as some of the "manual equalization" methodology that some battery "experts" find to be effective.

The other school of thought is BatteryMINDer's, I believe, patented process which does not elevate voltage, but rather, sends a pulse through the battery at the vibration frequencies of the sulfate crystals. This allegedly dissolves the crystal and returns the sulfur back into SOLUTION, rather than simply dislodging the crystal from the lead plate. However, I question whether this methodology is as effective in destratification as the high voltage method.

I don't have a stake in this game, other than looking for the best system to fall within the claims of many experts and marketers.

My thought process in choosing my setup was, IQ-4 for destratifying (in theory I won't have any sulfate crystls to mechanically dislodge, because of the OBD-12) and the OBD-12 to keep sulfate crystals from forming and the chemicals in solution on an ongoing basis.

[dznf0g]

Copy_of_Marine_Battery_Charging_Scheme_only_(3).xls

Here is a spreadsheet provided to me from Interstate Battery relative to their recommendation on deep cycle Marine Battery charging (wet cell).

I was kind of suprised at their aggressive Equalization charge parameters.
2 - 4 volts at 16.0 - 16.3 volts for 3 - 6 hours.

That is higher than I read elsewhere.

I don't think the IOTA achieves those parameters. Are they necessary and is IOTA effective (or other rv converter/chargers)? I don't know.
Opionions all over the board on equalization.

[dznf0g]

Sorry, that should be "2 - 4 AMPS at 16.0 - 16.3 volts for 3 - 6 hours"

[68 Overlander]

Hey guys, let me help clarify, or muddy the water perhaps.
Equalization as noted above IS a deliberate over charge in an attempt to equalize the cells and requires 15.5+ volts for a predetermined period of time based on the battery manufactures recommendation.
Iota and Progressive DON'T do that. The problem lies in the definition of equalization I guess. What Iota does is enter a charge cycle every 7 days and does raise the voltage to its max 14.78 for a "period of time" depending on the state of charge of the battery and then finishes the charge cycle IAW its normal voltage trip points and timers.
Progressive simply raises the voltage to 14.4 every 21 days for four hours and then drops right back down to 13.2 float.
Both brands only do this in the storage modes when the float voltage has not changed for several days. Every day use will prevent the trigger of their "equalization" modes because the timers are tripped or reset, so to speak.
In my opinion, neither brand is really equalizing the electrolyte. At best they are mixing the electrolyte and possibly preventing stratification. This can't hurt but its value is limited.
What I like about the Iota however is that it at least completes a full charge cycle every 7 days to keep the batteries fully charged. This is particularly helpful in colder climates.
One other note, both make reference to preventing desulfation and I can live with that since anything that mixes the electrolyte periodically can help to prevent stratification that can lead to sulfation (the number one cause of premature battery failure)
The batteryminders use a totally different technology but are actually more effective than either of the converters in my opinion. The rapid pulse mode technology really does work as well as equalizing except I consider it more of a preventative procedure instead of a repair. In time, a batteryminder may repair but it could take weeks or months depending on the degree of sulfation.

[ticki2]

The quote was not in my instructions either , it comes from the iota web site , click on IQ smart charger. I agree the information is vague , I have no idea what "equalization stage "means as far as numbers. I am not knowlegable enough nor have equipment enough to varify any of the claims made by anyone . I guess the proof is in the pudding as they say , if the battery performs well and lasts long you have a good system . The quote was given for informational purposes only .

[Ag&Au]

Thanks for the info Randy, that clarified a lot.

This is a paraphrase of what I read on one of the solar power sites.

Desulfation employing the method of raising the voltage is effective for recent sulfate deposits, but not very effective for removing older sulfate deposits. Desulfation using ultrasonic pulses (commonly 88KHz) to break up crystalline sulfate deposits is very effective in remover older deposits and restoring old batteries. This makes sense to me because the sulfates will initially form a soft deposit that will take some (I haven't research how much)time to crystallize. The most effective pulsed desulphaters sweep the frequency of the ultrasonic pulses through the resonant frequencies of the various types of crystallized sulfates.


So it only seems logical to me to have both systems active to fully extend the life a battery in a system such as a travel trailer where the use/charge cycle fluctuates greatly over time.

Regards,

Ken

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by 68 Overlander

Hey guys, let me help clarify, or muddy the water perhaps.
Equalization as noted above IS a deliberate over charge in an attempt to equalize the cells and requires 15.5+ volts for a predetermined period of time based on the battery manufactures recommendation.
Iota and Progressive DON'T do that. The problem lies in the definition of equalization I guess. What Iota does is enter a charge cycle every 7 days and does raise the voltage to its max 14.78 for a "period of time" depending on the state of charge of the battery and then finishes the charge cycle IAW its normal voltage trip points and timers.
Progressive simply raises the voltage to 14.4 every 21 days for four hours and then drops right back down to 13.2 float.
Both brands only do this in the storage modes when the float voltage has not changed for several days. Every day use will prevent the trigger of their "equalization" modes because the timers are tripped or reset, so to speak.
In my opinion, neither brand is really equalizing the electrolyte. At best they are mixing the electrolyte and possibly preventing stratification. This can't hurt but its value is limited.
What I like about the Iota however is that it at least completes a full charge cycle every 7 days to keep the batteries fully charged. This is particularly helpful in colder climates.
One other note, both make reference to preventing desulfation and I can live with that since anything that mixes the electrolyte periodically can help to prevent stratification that can lead to sulfation (the number one cause of premature battery failure)
The batteryminders use a totally different technology but are actually more effective than either of the converters in my opinion. The rapid pulse mode technology really does work as well as equalizing except I consider it more of a preventative procedure instead of a repair. In time, a batteryminder may repair but it could take weeks or months depending on the degree of sulfation.

Thanks, Randy, that is exactly what you conveyed to me and I feebly tried to recreate it above.
From all my reading I have drawn the conclusion the the Iota, as well as the others do not raise voltage high enough for an effective "equalization". Also I just don't like the idea of the relatively high amperage at a really high voltage and "boiling" during a "maintenance cycle. I know it's better than allowing sulfation though.

I believe I read on a few websites that the rapid high voltage equalization can remove lead from the plates over time, and thus reduce their surface area and eventually contribute to cell shorting, due to the shed lead buildup at the bottom of the case.

[ticki2]

Originally Posted by ticki2

According to Iota

"Weekly Equalization For Longer Battery Life
If batteries have not received a "Smart Charge"during a seven-day period , the IQ Controller will switch the DSL charger into a pre-programmed equalization stage to top off the batteries , dissolving any sulfate layer on the battery's internal plates and avoiding stratification. "

Randy , thanks for adding the additional information , it helps the understanding .
Refering to the Iota quote , it says "..dissolving any sulfate layer...", not helps prevent sulfate . Perhaps Iota needs to revise their literature.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by w7ts

Thanks for the info Randy, that clarified a lot.

This is a paraphrase of what I read on one of the solar power sites.

Desulfation employing the method of raising the voltage is effective for recent sulfate deposits, but not very effective for removing older sulfate deposits. Desulfation using ultrasonic pulses (commonly 88KHz) to break up crystalline sulfate deposits is very effective in remover olde deposits and restoring old batteries. The most effective pulsed desulphaters sweep the frequency of the ultrasonic pulses through the resonant frequencies of the various types of crystallized sulfates.

This makes sense to me because the sulfates will initially form a soft deposit that will take some (I haven't research how much)time to crystallize.

So it only seems logical to me to have both systems active to fully extend the life a battery in a system such as a travel trailer where the use/charge cycle fluctuates greatly over time.

Regards,

Ken

Ken,

My reasoning for the purchase exactly! Thanks

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by ticki2

Randy , thanks for adding the additional information , it helps the understanding .
Refering to the Iota quote , it says "..dissolving any sulfate layer...", not helps prevent sulfate . Perhaps Iota needs to revise their literature.

Here is a quote I stole from a battery site on the web - Battery Tutorial

"The Lead Acid battery is made up of plates, lead, and lead oxide (various other elements are used to change density, hardness, porosity, etc.) with a 35% sulfuric acid and 65% water solution. This solution is called electrolyte, which causes a chemical reaction that produce electrons. When you test a battery with a hydrometer, you are measuring the amount of sulfuric acid in the electrolyte. If your reading is low, that means the chemistry that makes electrons is lacking. So where did the sulfur go? It is resting on the battery plates and when you recharge the battery, the sulfur returns to the electrolyte."

Sulfation is a normal and necessary process in a lead acid battery.

The problem occurs when the sulfates are allowed to reside on the plates to the point that they can crystallize, This makes the sulfur much harder to recover and, thus the battery is much harder to charge. This happens when a fully or partially discharged battery is not fully recharged in a timely matter.

If Sulfation was "prevented", the battery would not operate.

[dznf0g]

As usual, it seems that terminologies even within the"expert" ranks seem to lack clarity.
ie: in the chart in my above post from Interstate, they refer to the equalization charge and the absorbtion charge to be one and the same....others refer to the absorbtion charge as the middle of the 3 phases of a 3 stage charger with the equalization charge as an additional, occasional high voltage charge at a predetermined low amperage rating. Still, others differ from either of these definitions.

In my readings, collectively taken, I think that most consider a "sulfated" battery, not as one which is healthy and just low on charge level (no crystals), but rather one which has accumulated hardened sulfates which will not return to solution when charged. They refer to the material in this CONDITION as "sulfation" (a noun), or the battery is "sulfated".

In deed, the normal process of the transfer of sulfur from electrolyte to plate as a PROCESS is also refered to as sulfation (a verb).

Just one of the many confused issues when discussing batteries.

The CONDITION were are taliking about here is hardened sulfates which can be prevented and remedied (if we are to believe claims) so the PROCESS of sulfation can proceed efficiently over a (hopefully) longer time.

[graysailor]

So the batteryminder is permanently installed as opposed to plugging it in when using shore power? If so I assume that it is turned on when you are driving down the road or plugged into shore power. I think I am asking the question correctly.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by graysailor

So the batteryminder is permanently installed as opposed to plugging it in when using shore power? If so I assume that it is turned on when you are driving down the road or plugged into shore power. I think I am asking the question correctly.

Yes, it is a non-powered version of just the desulfater portion of the traditional BatteryMinder charger/maintainers. It turns on anytime a charge voltage is present. ie, while driving and on shore power or solar charging. I'll see if I can find the model on their site for you.

[dznf0g]

Here it is:

Battery Tester, Battery Tester Desulfator, Battery Tester Mainteiner

[Kenaisalmon]

Rich,
I have a 2012 classic with the Parallax converter. I replaced with a new plug and play converter. I also bought new batteries and a Trimetric battery monitor. I have looked at your install on the new converter and Trimetric. I have dual batteries like yours. I am confused about what to do with the negative battery cables that connect to the shunt.My electric box is like yours before you made any improvements. I do not have solar . Can you advise
me ? I printed your before and after pics,
Robert

[dznf0g]

First disregard the red insulation. I had two marine battery cables laying around so I used them. You can see they are labeled "neg" . That said, remove both negative battery cables from the negative buss in your electrical center and attach them to the proper side of the shunt. Procure two lengths of cable of the same gauge (8 ga, iirc) and attach them to the other side of the shunt and insert them into the same lugs in the negative buss from which the originals were taken.