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Old 12-07-2016, 12:06 AM   #1
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ZAMP 3 Port Roof Cap Prewire System on 2017 25FB Questions

My 2017 International 25FB came with a roof mounted ZAMP 3 Port Roof Cap.
ZAMP says that the all of the wiring to controller and batteries is pre-installed and that it can handle up to 450 watts.

http://www.zampsolar.com/rv-solar-ki...olar-kit-srrv/.

Has anyone done an installation using the ZAMP system? I'm looking at the 450 watt kit. I'm wondering where the wiring for the controller terminates as well as for the battery connection.

What do you think of the ZAMP Digital Deluxe 30 Amp 5-Stage PWM Controller? My last trailer had a SunRunner Gold 30MPPT/8 System Core Controller and I understand that MPPT controllers are preferred over PVM controllers. Would a PVM be a huge step down?
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:47 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by interstateflyer View Post
My 2017 International 25FB came with a roof mounted ZAMP 3 Port Roof Cap.
ZAMP says that the all of the wiring to controller and batteries is pre-installed and that it can handle up to 450 watts.

http://www.zampsolar.com/rv-solar-ki...olar-kit-srrv/.

Has anyone done an installation using the ZAMP system? I'm looking at the 450 watt kit. I'm wondering where the wiring for the controller terminates as well as for the battery connection.

What do you think of the ZAMP Digital Deluxe 30 Amp 5-Stage PWM Controller? My last trailer had a SunRunner Gold 30MPPT/8 System Core Controller and I understand that MPPT controllers are preferred over PVM controllers. Would a PVM be a huge step down?
After installing close to 200 solar charging systems, I have found that the benefits of MPPT over PWM are well documented. The only time when there might be parity is for systems that have a solar array of 200 watts or less.

I also think you will find that a solar charge controller from either Blue Sky or Victron (or other QUALITY controllers) will provide you with more charging amps to your batteries than any PWM controller available.

I'm certain that some of the PWM fans will chime in with their 'opinions', but a documented 20-30% increase in available charging amps to the batteries is hard to argue with from a quality MPPT controller.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:37 AM   #3
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Glad to see this string as I'm in the same process right now with a 2017 22fb. I have just purchased a 200w kit from AM Solar with a Victron 30 mttp, 702 monitor, and Victron 350 w inverter with 2 new 6v Lifelines. I also have the pre wired Zamp combiner box.
I've talked with the folks at AM a couple of times now. Their opinion is that I will be fine using the 10awg prewire with this set up. My thought is that if I find that I need to upgrade wire I can do that later. To use the existing prewire and combiner will sure make my life easier. Love to hear everyone else's thoughts.
Also while I'm at it I decided to clean up the rats nest at the front of the AS and place the batteries inside under the bed. I can post more pics as I move along if y'all would like.Click image for larger version

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Old 12-07-2016, 08:59 AM   #4
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I was considering a series-parallel combination of 400 watts. I could start with two 100 watt panels in series and add another series pair in parallel with the first. My thought was this would let me use the existing pre-wire by reducing the current. The potential for blocking concerned me, as did the Voc and Isc limits of the controllers I was looking at and the length of the wiring in my trailer. The pre-wire for the panels is in the refrigerator compartment on the street side, the pre-wire for the controller is in the road side under the kitchen counter, and the battery wiring runs from there to the battery compartments at the front of the trailer. All of it appears to be #10.

I removed a satellite antenna control panel that was mounted next to the thermostat on the wall of the refrigerator compartment when I converted from the old Winegard 18" dish to the Trav'ler. I could mount the charge controller (or a remote) there. From there I have easy access to the roof and could run larger wires up the road side to the battery compartments and maybe mount the charge controller under the sofa. This would let me run all the panels in parallel and eliminate the blocking and controller rating concerns.

I think it might be less work in my case to wire it up that way than to cut a hole in the wall and try to fish the cables from under the galley counter up into the wall to the controller location.

I'm a ways from actually doing this, just planning at the moment so I would appreciate any comments.

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Old 12-07-2016, 09:09 AM   #5
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ZAMP 3 Port Roof Cap Prewire System on 2017 25FB Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llittle54 View Post
I can post more pics as I move along if y'all would like.

Please do!
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:10 AM   #6
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I wired all four panels in parallel and glad I did. When camping it's unusual for all four panels to be in full sunlight at the same time. Invariably a tree, a branch, or something will partly shade the trailer leaving just one or two panels with sunlight. When wired in series every panel in that series must be in full sunlight at the same time for to create a charge. It's my understanding that even a small partial shadow on one panel effectively shuts the entire panel (or series) off.
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:13 PM   #7
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[QUOTE=

What do you think of the ZAMP Digital Deluxe 30 Amp 5-Stage PWM Controller? My last trailer had a SunRunner Gold 30MPPT/8 System Core Controller and I understand that MPPT controllers are preferred over PVM controllers. Would a PVM be a huge step down?[/QUOTE]

Have had nothing but rave on the Zamp systems. You just don't need MPPT 97% of the time on a system like that.
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Old 12-07-2016, 03:42 PM   #8
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You just don't need MPPT 97% of the time on a system like that.
Can you explain this? Thanks
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:43 PM   #9
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That's going to be hard to explain. A PWM converter has the same efficiency as a linear regulator, meaning that the efficiency will be equal or less than Vout/Vin. In the case of 12 V solar panels, that's typically going to be no better than 12 V / 18 V = 66% as an example.

Conversely, an MPPT controller acts like a DC/DC converter where the typical efficiency is > 90%.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:43 PM   #10
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:04 PM   #11
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Can you explain this? Thanks
Well, I suppose I could spend 30 minutes structuring sentences and thoughts but since most of what I know AND/OR believe to be true comes from what we have either tested, or rely on from engineers of the various products we market and trade. It is no secret that we are fans of Ralph Hiesey (Owner of Bogart Engineering and the Trimetric Battery Monitors and Solar Controllers) so I will quote his FAQ for you all to discern for yourself. Note I did not (nor he, Ralph) suggest there are not conditions when MPPT could benefit, but rather most will not reap any significant benefits for the reasons explained here.

"A very good question! They BOTH have good and bad. Plenty of hype has been written already. Here's my (Ralph's) view:
The "good" for PWM: It is simpler and lower cost technology. Under some common circumstances–it can actually deliver more amps to the battery. That could be when:
(1)days are moderate or warm, with few clouds.
(2) batteries are charging at over 13 volts, (in a 12 battery system) which they almost always are when actually CHARGING.
(3) Panel voltage is properly matched to the battery voltage, for example "12V" panels are being used with a 12V system.
PWM is actually more "power efficient" than MPPT–which means less total power loss in the controller itself. So heat sinks in the design can be smaller (and less expensive). Missing in most analysis of MPPT is that there is always a conversion loss with MPPT, which tends to be higher the greater the voltage difference between battery and panels. That's why PWM can actually beat MPPT under circumstances described above.
Some places that analyze MPPT assume that panels with 30V open circuit voltage are being used in a 12V system. Any good MPPT system will easily provide better performance in that case. They also may assume batteries are charging at 12 or even 11 volts, which is unrealistic. Lead acid batteries are typically below 13 volts only when discharging, or perhaps charging with very little charging current–meaning the actual potential gain in amps is not great.
The benefit for MPPT becomes apparent if you use panels not voltage matched for the battery. If they are not, MPPT will utilize more of the potential energy of the panels. For example, if you use 24 volt panels to charge a 12 volt battery system you must use MPPT, otherwise you would be using your panels very inefficiently. If you are trying to use PWM in that case, you are misusing the PWM technology.
Another potential benefit with MPPT is that if distance between panels and batteries is far, smaller wire can be utilized by running panels at higher voltage to the batteries. Running at twice the voltage reduces wire size to 1/4, which for a long run can be a significant saving in copper wire.
If temperatures are low enough, the slightly less power efficiency of MPPT will be compensated by the higher panel voltages, which will result in a little more battery current. But in actual measurements we made using a commonly sold MPPT solar controller, this would occur at temperatures less than 55 F degrees (in full sun, when charging at more than 13 volts), where there is a slight advantage to MPPT in my location (Boulder Creek, near the California coast). As temperature drops below that (in full sun) MPPT will get some advantage, such as could occur at high elevations in Colorado in the winter. Potentially this would be maximum about a 2.5% improvement in amps output for every 10 degrees F lower in temperature (or 4.6% per 10 degrees C colder. I'm using data from Kyocera KD-140 panels.)
There can be theoretically optimal situations (that I don't personally experience where I live) where MPPT could give some advantage: that is when solar current is present, but the batteries are quite low in charge–but because loads are high and even greater than the solar current the batteries are still discharging despite the solar current. Under these conditions the voltage COULD be at 12.5 volts, or even lower. Again, using data from Kyocera panels, ("Normal Operating Conditions") there is a theoretical maximum gain over PWM of 20% current assuming NO MPPT conversion loss and no voltage drop in the wires to the panels, at 20C (68F). With PWM, the voltage drop in the wires in this case would not affect the charging current. Now if in addition you lower the temperature to below freezing at 28 degrees F (while sun is shining) you might actually get up to a THEORETICAL nearly 30% gain while the batteries are discharging.
The only REALLY BAD part of MPPT, is all the hype surrounding it–for example one manufacturer advertises "UP TO 30% OR MORE" power harvested from you panels. If you are using solar panels properly matched to the batteries, 30% ain't gonna happen unless it's EXTREMELY cold. And your batteries have to be abnormally low in charging voltage–which tends not to happen when it's cold (unless you assume the battery is still discharging while solar is happening). Virtually all the analyses I've seen touting MPPT on the Internet ignore the conversion loss, assume really cold temperatures, assume unreasonably low charging voltages, assume no voltage drop in the wires from panels to batteries, use STC conditions for the panels (that the marketing types prefer) rather than more realistic NOCT conditions, and in some cases assume panels not voltage matched to the batteries.
The other thing that is misleading about MPPT, is that some manufacturers make meters that show both the solar current and the battery current. In almost all cases for a well designed MPPT type the battery current will be greater. The engineers making these know better, but it is implied (by marketing types?) that if you were NOT using MPPT you would be charging your batteries with only the SOLAR current that you read on their meters. That's not true, because the PWM BATTERY current should always be higher than the MPPT SOLAR current. It is the nature of the MPPT that maximum power occurs when the current is lower than the maximum, so they must operate there to get the maximum power. So to properly compare the two you need to compare MPPT with an actual PWM controller in the same circumstances.
Finally, the reason we went to PWM is that I was anticipating that panel prices were going to drop (which they certainly have over the last 5-10 years!) and that the small advantage of MPPT (under conditions where the correct panels are used for the batteries) would not justify their additional cost and complexity. So my thinking, for more total benefit per $, put your money in an extra panel rather than a more expensive and complex technology."
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:19 PM   #12
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:26 AM   #13
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You know there’s an issue here when Ralph needs so many words to make his case. But, let’s break it down…

1. It’s true that PWM technology is simpler and cheaper. But for the additional cost of a MPPT controller, you’ll get much better efficiency, so for me it’s worth it.

2. And it’s true that there might be some conditions where a PWM converter can deliver higher battery current. But this is terribly misleading since your system is nearly topped up at this point and the power levels are very low.

3. It’s also true that PWM technology is more “power efficient” with respect to power dissipation in the converter itself. This only means that a PWM converter needs a smaller heatsink. I’d rather dissipate 10% of the total available power that I can transfer to my batteries rather than leaving 33% of the total power unused.

4. There is even a point where the conversion loss for a MPPT controller is greater than the losses of a PWM system. But like point #2, there’s very little power transfer that’s occurring, so it’s irrelevant.

The rest of his analysis is his attempt to justify PWM technology because that’s the only technology he has on offer to sell.

An MPPT controller’s efficiency is identical to that of a DC/DC converter. For an ideal DC/DC converter, power is constant and all the energy from solar panels is transferred to the battery. In an MPPT controller the optimal operating point for most solar panels is around 18 V. Let’s say a panel can output 5 A. So the power input is 18 V * 5 V = 90 W. The output voltage of an MPPT controller depends on the state of the battery, but let’s say it’s operating at 13 V. The output current will be 5 A * Vout/Vin = 6.92 A. Now, we have to account for efficiency losses, so if your MPPT reports an efficiency of 90% at these power levels, then the real output current is 5 A * Vout/Vin * efficiency = 6.23 A - much more than the input current.

Now let’s look at a PWM converter. First rule, Iout = Iin. So for a solar panel operating at its optimal point (18 V and 5 A), the maximum current can only be 5 A, assuming no losses. The input power is 18 V * 5 A = 90 W. The output power is 13 V * 5 A = 65 W and the efficiency is 65 W/90 W = 72%. If the battery is operating at 12 V, then the efficiency will be 66%.

Bottom line: MPPT controllers cost more, but a well-designed one will always beat the efficiency of a PWM controller when you need it the most.
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Old 12-08-2016, 09:56 AM   #14
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Popcorn is free
Randy, it's pretty clear that you've heard these debates before. I do hope that as a Commercial Member who carries much influence with the folks on these forums that you refrain from reposting easily refutable material.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:55 PM   #15
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I would go with the ZAMP Kit, as you described. I have the ZAMP 30 amp Controller and works great. I'm currently expanding my existing 200W Zamp system to add 2 additional 80 watt panels.
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