Yamaha 2K did not work with EasyStart

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by hhendrix

Very interesting thread. I have a 27' FC with twin A/C's. I also have 2 Yamaha's with the companion set up. The Easy Starts for both just arrived but I haven't set a time to install them yet. Mine run on propane and I'm sure at least one A/C will run on the twin Yamaha's with no problem. Question is: Will they both run? I'm going to have to check on the A/C btu ratings and get an idea how they will perform.

Hi Hendrix. Besides knowing the BTU capacities of your A/C units, what is the precise model of the two Yamaha generators that you have? As I'm sure you read in this thread, knowing this information will determine the answer to your question.

I say this because we have first-hand experience and success with twin Honda EU2000i generators running on Propane with twin A/Cs on an Airstream 27' FB with a 13.5k Penguin II and a 15k Penguin II, where we proved:

1. Either A/C would start and run on a single generator,
2. Both A/Cs - starting the 15k last (worst case) - would start and run on twin generators, and
3. Both A/Cs - starting the 15k last - would start and run on a 30A utility hookup (which is actually slightly less power capacity than twin generators.)

In all cases above, we were able to load the Honda(s) with as much auxiliary load as they would handle, less the A/C running amps, before the A/C was started. In other words, if the A/C wanted to draw 14.5A steady-state, we loaded up the generator with a little over 2A before starting it, so that the total amps was only a tiny bit less than 16.7A after the start was over with. 16.7A is the maximum (2000W) limit of the Honda. In all cases, all start and run tests worked extremely well.

[Phoenix]

The Honda EU2000i Owner's Manual states that the rated power for continuous operation is 1,600 VA (equivalent to 13.3 A @ 120 VAC). The manual further states that the time limit for running the generator at the maximum power of 2,000 VA (equivalent to 16.7 A @ 120 VAC) is 30 minutes, and exceeding these limits "will shorten the service life of the generator".

In addition, the measurements listed in another discussion thread indicate that the voltage produced when running the air conditioner with a single generator is what appears to be brown-out conditions.

Wouldn't powering the air conditioner with a single Honda EU2000i risk damaging the A/C compressor, while simultaneously shortening the service life of the generator?

While I understand why one might hope that this would work, running an air conditioner and generator under conditions outside (or, at least, near the edge) of the manufacturers' specifications would seem to be inviting disaster at some later date.

I personally would not risk damaging two very expensive pieces of RV equipment in this manner, and would instead follow the recommended methods of powering the air conditioner by connecting two EU2000i's in parallel, or using a larger generator.

Just my opinion -- Good luck to those working on this project.


==========


Extracted from Honda EU2000i Owner's Manual


AC APPLICATIONS

Before connecting an appliance or power cord to the generator:

• Make sure that it is in good working order. Faulty appliances or power cords can create a potential for electrical shock.
  
  
• If an appliance begins to operate abnormally, becomes sluggish or stops suddenly, turn it off immediately. Disconnect the appliance, and determine whether the problem is the appliance, or if the rated load capacity of the generator has been exceeded.
  
  
• Make sure that the electrical rating of the tool or appliance does not exceed that of the generator. Never exceed the maximum power rating of the generator. Power levels between rated and maximum may be used for no more than 30 minutes.

NOTICE
Substantial overloading will switch off the AC circuit protector. Exceeding the time limit for maximum power operation or slightly overloading the generator may not switch the AC circuit protector OFF, but will shorten the service life of the generator.

Limit operation requiring maximum power to 30 minutes.
Maximum power is:

2,000 VA

For continuous operation, do not exceed the rated power.
Rated power is:

1,600 VA

The total power requirements (VA) of all appliances connected must be considered. Appliance and power tool manufacturers usually list rating information near the model number or serial number.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Wouldn't powering the air conditioner with a single Honda EU2000i risk damaging the A/C compressor...?

Hello Phoenix. With EasyStart installed, there is no risk to the A/C compressor because it will protect it from any an anomalous behavior in the AC voltage output coming from the power source, be it a generator, inverter, or utility. As discussed in this forum a number of times (in different topics), EasyStart has 5 diagnostic faults that it constantly monitors for during both startup and steady-state running conditions.

Regarding your point about the Honda generator being at risk when operated between 1600W and 2000W, since I don't work for Honda, I cannot comment further beyond what you cited from their owner's manual. However, I can say that we at Micro-Air know of hundreds of EasyStart customers in the RV aftermarket that have run their A/C units on their Honda EU2000i's without ever to our knowledge reporting that they damaged or shortened the life of the generator.

[GMFL]

Originally Posted by lewster

No way......no how!

You are asking for a catastrophe by attempting to merge 2 disparate 120VAC sources into a single circuit.

This is why automatic transfer switches are used.....it's one or the other!!!! NEVER BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY!

Where did you ever get the idea that you could 'reduce' the load of your 30 amp shore circuit with adding a generator????

You CAN by using a hybrid inverter/charger with a large battery bank , as they are designed to supplement load requirements that exceed a single circuit's rating.....but NOT with a combination of a generator with shore power.

NOOOOOOOOO! Not by adding a generator. By installing the micro air soft starter. The soft starter should reduce the amp draw from the AC unit. So if the AC happenen to cycle at the same time my wife is running her massive 1800watt hair drying blow torch. Then maybe I will not have to reset the breaker. That's what I was trying to say

[GMFL]

Originally Posted by shiny16

i think he meant the easy start would reduce the load not the generator. I hope.

Jimmy

correct!

[wulfraat]

Success running at 5,350 feet elevation!

-Cleaned cooling fins with an air compressor
-Replaced 8 year old run capacitor with a new one (dual 20/10 per specs required by dometic)
- Re-jetted my honda 2000i for 5,000-7,500 feet elevation to ensure maximum performance (cleaned the carburetor etc while I was at it)
- High octane fuel per honda (92)
-Turned everything off in the trailer and disconnected the batteries to eliminate any draw on 120v power
-For my initial test I configured the AC to run the circulation fan in low (vs high/auto)

With all that done I cranked up the generator and let it warm up for a few minutes, and off we went. Outside temp was about 50 degrees so I ran the AC unit in heat pump mode.

- No draw from AC - ~125 volts measured in system. I didn't have my multi meter handy but I did have a little analog voltage meter that plugs into a 120volts outlet
- Ac fan on low - genset still produced ~125volts. No drop in voltage running the AC fan only
- Once the compressor started up voltage dropped momentarily to the 100-105 range, the honda grunted under load then Rpms on the honda picked back up and voltage output recovered and held stead at exactly 120volts under full load (circulation fan and Ac compressor both running now, and nice warm air is produced)

Ran continuously for 20 minutes with no drop in voltage and no compressor stall. Good enough for me. Previously (before I made the few adjustments outlined above) voltage would dive down into the 80's and the compressor would stall after 1-5 minutes of continue run time, sometimes overloading and stalling the generator as well.

On my next test I ran the AC with the fan in High/auto mode. No issue there either - I ran with the compressor on, fan in high for 10 minutes with no drop in voltage or compressor stall issues (other than a brief drop in voltage when the compressor started up and put the generator under full load).

This is pretty impressive for the little honda. Think about it....

Honda claims that the eu2000i output (2000w = 16.7 amps @ 120v) will be reduced by 3.5% per 1000 feet above sea level. So that's 17.5% less power in theory here at ~5,000ft. So running at full tilt at 120volts output the honda should only be able to produce 17.5% x 16.7amps = 13.8 amps maximum current at this altitude.

My first generation 13.5k btu dometic penguin specs are 3.5amps for the fan on high and another 12.4 amps for the compressor while running. So in theory, the AC unit is asking for 3.5+12.4=15.9 amps... and the little honda, in theory at 5,000 feet should only produce a maximum of 13.8amps... yet it works!

I'm a happy camper and glad I bought a honda eu2000i genset and micro air Easy Start soft start....

[Troutboy]

Congrats Wulf! Nice write up. Glad it is working and you figured it out. Can you test it out in propane now? [emoji15]

[kscherzi]

I write this as I'm sitting inside my trailer with the AC on high. It's been 50 minutes since I started the 15k BTU AC with my Yamaha EF2000iS in conjunction with the Micro Air Easy Start unit installed. During this time the compressor has cycled on and off several times. The generator is running on gasoline, and by the sounds of it is going at top speed. The trailer is parked in storage at 1,400 foot elevation. The outside air temperature is in the upper 70's. Right now the trailer is fully shaded.

Interestingly it couldn't start the AC compressor in eco mode. In an earlier test last month eco mode worked. Turning eco mode off allowed the compressor to start today.

Using a multimeter plugged into a socket the voltage is holding steady in a range between 117 and 120 volts. Nothing else is on inside the trailer except for the fridge on propane. We'll, the two TV's are on standby.

I feel confident in saying that a Yamaha EF2000iS is equivalent in capability to a Honda 2000i, at least in regards to the trailer air conditioner function. I'm happy. My goal was to carry the minimum amount of generator camping and still have emergency occasional use of the the air conditioner. This setup appears to perfectly fit the bill.

[kscherzi]

Follow up. I turned the AC in the trailer off. Put the generator on eco mode. Then turned the AC back on. This time the fan and compressor started fine.

[Bluto]

Originally Posted by kscherzi

I write this as I'm sitting inside my trailer with the AC on high. It's been 50 minutes since I started the 15k BTU AC with my Yamaha EF2000iS in conjunction with the Micro Air Easy Start unit installed. During this time the compressor has cycled on and off several times. The generator is running on gasoline, and by the sounds of it is going at top speed. The trailer is parked in storage at 1,400 foot elevation. The outside air temperature is in the upper 70's. Right now the trailer is fully shaded.

Interestingly it couldn't start the AC compressor in eco mode. In an earlier test last month eco mode worked. Turning eco mode off allowed the compressor to start today.

Using a multimeter plugged into a socket the voltage is holding steady in a range between 117 and 120 volts. Nothing else is on inside the trailer except for the fridge on propane. We'll, the two TV's are on standby.

I feel confident in saying that a Yamaha EF2000iS is equivalent in capability to a Honda 2000i, at least in regards to the trailer air conditioner function. I'm happy. My goal was to carry the minimum amount of generator camping and still have emergency occasional use of the the air conditioner. This setup appears to perfectly fit the bill.

Nice follow up. Glad to see that you ran the 15k BTU A/C for a longer time period. Seems most posts on this subject get the gen to start the a/c and that is the end of their report. The more info posted the better we can see if the combo will work in our situation. I can hardly wait to see a use report in high summer temps. The only ones that can tell us about that now, I think, would be somebody living in Phoenix AZ as they were in the 90's last week. Thanks for the report!

[thiel]

Everybody is remembering to do the five learning starts while connected to shorepower, yes?

[kscherzi]

I forgot to add that the Yamaha has a overload light. It came on briefly as the compressor was starting. Stayed lit for maybe on second. That was it. I was checking the generator on and off the whole time. I think its safe to assume if you have a Honda 2000i or second generation Yamaha 2000 (EF2000iS) the A/C will start and run with a Easy Start.

My own personal need is occasional. Living out west moving to a cooler spot is always preferential, but sometimes we get stuck in a hot spot in transit. So this is a great solution. If I were to live where the A/C must be used like I suppose most anywhere in the southeast US, I might instead want a more robust (aka heavier) system.

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by thiel

Everybody is remembering to do the five learning starts while connected to shorepower, yes?

I used my honda generator for the 5 learning starts, it was not a problem. I only have 15amp service in my garage, not 20....

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by thiel

Everybody is remembering to do the five learning starts while connected to shorepower, yes?

Originally Posted by wulfraat

I used my honda generator for the 5 learning starts, it was not a problem. I only have 15amp service in my garage, not 20....

Thiel is correct, but Wulfraat is probably totally fine with what he did.

Because some customers have no access to utility power in some cases, we've done testing with doing all 5 learning starts on generator, and it does still work just as well most of the time. The only time it does not is if the very first start - which is only about a 40-50% reduction in start current, causes a big distortion in the voltage fed by the generator or inverter (or any limited power source). This very first start measures a couple critical parameters that get used for the life of the learning data, so it is possible to "corrupt" the entire learning process if troubles occur on the first start. The good news is if any learning start completely fails, its data does not get recorded and that same starting trial, be it #1 thru #5, will be repeated on the next starting attempt. Also, if things really go awry, you can also force the EasyStart to reinitiate the learning process by temporarily moving the jumper on the inside.

So the above is why we recommend the first 5 starts be done on utility power. In actuality, you could probably attain equal success with doing only the very first start on utility since that is the most critical. Starts #2-#5 are already attaining over 60% start current reduction on their way to topping out around 70% or more, so doing starts #2-#5 on generator will likely not be problematic. Doing all 5 starts on generator will work most of the time, but does carry some risk.

[rmkrum]

Great discussion,all!

[lsbrodsky]

I bought Jimmy's Honda 2000, hooked it up today and it worked like a champ! Apparently the Yamaha, non-V2, really means it when they say 13.3 amps. I never even saw much voltage drop on a DMM when the A/C started on the Honda.

Larry

[kscherzi]

Glad it worked out for you. So now we can report with some confidence that a typical Airstream A/C can start and run continuesly on a Honda 2000 and a Yamaha 2000 version 2. In both instance's this is made possible by undocumented built-in generator capacity to push out amperage above their rated ability.

[Troutboy]

Larry, glad it worked out. And from the above posts you are also running on propane, correct?

[lsbrodsky]

Yes, the GenConnex units only run on propane, but the whole idea is to not need gasoline. I just picked badly 4 years ago. I always preferred Yamaha power stuff on boats so I went with a Maine Diesel converted Yamaha unit. But then, EasyStart was not available then and I had no inclination to run A/C off a 2k genny.

Larry

[dames7]

Got to get off this subject, it's Honda Propane, works every time.