Solar Show and Tell

[Wconley]

Originally Posted by pcskier

Walt, great writeup, thank you!
You mentioned a 200 ah lithium battery. Dumb question, but I assume you added this and deleted the two flooded batteries? Or you were able to keep them and access that power somehow?
It sounds like you changed out your converter? Was that needed because of the lithium battery?
Thanks again!

Yes, the Interstates were removed. This is a big benefit to the tongue heavy 28RBQ and compensates for the added weight of the front roof panels. The LifeBlue battery weighs a little more than half the weight of two Interstates and is moved several feet back toward the axles. The old battery box now holds my jack pad blocks, flag pole base and various other stuff that can get dirty. The new Converter was needed to properly charge the Lithium battery which accepts a much higher charge rate.

[waninae39]

this our setup with 360W solar with three panels in our as22FB

mostly victron energy parts

it shows the schematic plus what most of the parts look like

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by Philip Jones

Can’t get enough of the education i am receiving in this thread. Fantastic for a new-to-solar guy.

I am going to install my solar in two steps, getting new batteries and converter first and then install panels and charge controller second.

AirMiles, if you were buying panels right now, who would you buy them from? AM Solar? I am looking to replicate what you have done exactly. I found your paper sketch of the wiring enormously helpful. Thank you!

I was very happy with the equipment I purchased from AMSolar and the installation support they provided. I’d definitely buy from them again. My second choice was Renogy. Renogy was slightly cheaper, but panels were out of stock. I believe the AMSolar kit was more complete with shrink wrap and crimp connections . . .

Thanks for the complement on the thread. It’s the input from everyone that makes it so good. I hope others will provide more of their historical performance screen for better comparisons of systems. I will continue to document my use in thirty day increments, if not shorter if the discussion merits shorter periods.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

I was very happy with the equipment I purchased from AMSolar and the installation support they provided. I’d definitely buy from them again.

Airmiles, I posted this question a few posts back, but real quick: AM Solar has a Zamp kit and an "Airstream" kit. $145 more for the AS kit, which has different feet (half short, half tall) to account for the curve in the roof. And also this kit has "custom" wiring/connections on the back of the panels that they tell me are better and more 'versatile' than the Zamp connectors that come with the panels stock. Specifically, their email to me said:

'Aside from the mount feet, the cable connecting the panels to the combiner box is different. The Zamp option uses the Zamp cable and connectors that came with the panel. The other option uses our custom 10/2 cable. Our option gives you a little more versatility and makes a much more durable connection. Zamp wire: 2 conductor SAE connector skinny black cable; AM Solar connection: Hardwired 1/2 diameter gray wire (More durable, some people think it looks better too)'

Can you comment on needing the different feet, and/or the customized wire/connections? I'm willing to pay $145 more (on a 2-panel system) if there is a good reason to from a performance/technical standpoint, but if it's not necessary, that would pay for more than half of my Victron monitor!

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by pcskier

Great thread and I'll be reading the whole thing. Meanwhile, a couple quick questions. On my 23d, I am going to install 2 100w panels to start out, and have the charge controller that can handle up to 450w later if I add two more. With my miserly power usage, and being mostly in the southwest US with lots of sunny days, I think 200w will be enough to keep my batteries topped up so I can leave the genny at home most of the time. So my questions.

1. My trailer has "Solar Prewire." I gather that this means there is wire somewhere on the roof that would connect to the combiner, and then terminates down below near the electrical connections 'rat's nest' under my dinette. But I've read a lot of threads where many seem to route new wire down through the fridge area (on the 23d) to the rat's next. Is this because the factory prewire is deemed insufficient? Or is that dependent on wattage, i.e. 200 watts would be fine with the pre-wire, more panels/wattage needs bigger wire to be most efficient?

2. AM Solar has a kit with everything needed (except the Victron Monitor which is separate). The 2 panel "Zamp" system is $1250, and then an "Airstream" option which includes shorter and higher feet, to account for the curved roof on the Airstream. It also includes some sort of 'custom' wire/connectors on each panel. This option is $1395. I am trying to figure out what the big difference is for $145. When I posed that question, AM Solar emailed back: "Aside from the mount feet, the cable connecting the panels to the combiner box is different. The Zamp option uses the Zamp cable and connectors that came with the panel. The other option uses our custom 10/2 cable. Our option gives you a little more versatility and makes a much more durable connection."
Is it worth the extra $145 to get the wiring option that is described?

Thanks for input everybody, and again...great thread!

I would configure a 200w installation as parallel, not series, on the factory prewire. For 400W or 600W, I would configure series-parallel. The reason is that 200W is only 15A and you want the shading advantage of parallel. With 400w or 600W, you get the parallel advantages and the series advantages with the series-parallel configuration. Also on a 2014 without the Zamp box on the roof, I would add a combiner box and run new 4 or 6 gauge wire. To me, using the solar prewire only makes sense on 2017 an up Airstreams with the Zamp rooftop box.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by pteck

If I may suggest... The converter upgrade is wholly optional. Especially once one goes with significant solar.

I have had my convertor off for over a year and never use it. The solar controller is what does all the charging and tendering. It would be the odd day that I would need to charge with a genny and converter, for which the stock converter is fully capable.

Truthfully, I almost never plug in. Even at full hookups unless I want to run the AC. 400W solar is prodigious power.

100% agree with Pteck. I do exactly the same as him with the same results. Like I’ve said above, we agree more than we disagree. Both of our system configurations power all our 12V needs and either is a great option. I just firmly believe on 2017 and up Airstreams with the Zamp rooftop box that series-parallel is the way to go with 400W of solar.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by pteck

Depends how ones trailer is setup, but I believe most converters are powered off one of the 120v breakers. So turning that off unfortunately also turns off those branch outlets.

It doesn't impact anything in the 12v circuits as that is always powered by batt and solar.

I did add a custom switch to independently turn off the converter. Moreso because I added an automatic transfer switch to enable my inverters to power all 120v outlets and this prevents feedback to the converter charging the batts. Sorry if this may be confusing.

My opinion that there is an inordinate focus unecessarily placed on upgrading converters.

Attachment 343431

Agree again. I’ve used my PD4655 converter upgrade on five days since installing it in April 2018 in 170 days of camping. I would not upgrade the converter if installing solar - especially with 400W.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by AirMiles

I would configure a 200w installation as parallel, not series, on the factory prewire. For 400W or 600W, I would configure series-parallel. The reason is that 200W is only 15A and you want the shading advantage of parallel. With 400w or 600W, you get the parallel advantages and the series advantages with the series-parallel configuration. Also on a 2014 without the Zamp box on the roof, I would add a combiner box and run new 4 or 6 gauge wire. To me, using the solar prewire only makes sense on 2017 an up Airstreams with the Zamp rooftop box.

Thanks! To be clear...200w parallel would be fine with the factory pre-wire, if I upgrade to 400 later, switch to series parallel and add combiner box and bypass factory prewire and route bigger wire? I plan on starting with 200w but want the flexibility to upgrade later if needed.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by waninae39

this our setup with 360W solar with three panels in our as22FB

mostly victron energy parts

it shows the schematic plus what most of the parts look like

Excellent addition to the thread. It’s great to see installations and wiring diagrams in the Solar Show and Tell thread!

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by pcskier

Airmiles, I posted this question a few posts back, but real quick: AM Solar has a Zamp kit and an "Airstream" kit. $145 more for the AS kit, which has different feet (half short, half tall) to account for the curve in the roof. And also this kit has "custom" wiring/connections on the back of the panels that they tell me are better and more 'versatile' than the Zamp connectors that come with the panels stock. Specifically, their email to me said:

'Aside from the mount feet, the cable connecting the panels to the combiner box is different. The Zamp option uses the Zamp cable and connectors that came with the panel. The other option uses our custom 10/2 cable. Our option gives you a little more versatility and makes a much more durable connection. Zamp wire: 2 conductor SAE connector skinny black cable; AM Solar connection: Hardwired 1/2 diameter gray wire (More durable, some people think it looks better too)'

Can you comment on needing the different feet, and/or the customized wire/connections? I'm willing to pay $145 more (on a 2-panel system) if there is a good reason to from a performance/technical standpoint, but if it's not necessary, that would pay for more than half of my Victron monitor!

I would buy the Airstream kit with crimp connectors and the tall mounting brackets. I wanted my panels mounted as flat as possible. I actually drilled a lower hole on the short brackets so my panels would be flatter. The still have enough pitch to self clean in rain. I used 10 gauge SAE connectors into the Zamp rooftop box.

[AirMiles]

Originally Posted by pcskier

Thanks! To be clear...200w parallel would be fine with the factory pre-wire, if I upgrade to 400 later, switch to series parallel and add combiner box and bypass factory prewire and route bigger wire? I plan on starting with 200w but want the flexibility to upgrade later if needed.

Yes, one can configure parallel on the factory prewire with 200W and then splice into those wires to make a series-parallel configuration when upgrading to 400W. Look at my wiring diagram I posted yesterday. It does precisely this. I ran a single wire pair, then spliced in the second series panel by only cutting the white wire.

[AirMiles]

At 9:00 this morning I posted the first picture showing my series parallel configuration was charging at 5.8 Amps in overcast conditions. I’m happy to report that the system completely charged (floated) the batteries even though the skies remained overcast all day, except for a few seconds of occasional sunshine that peaked solar wattage to 277W around noon. In the afternoon, heavy rain fell and dropped charging back to bulk before the system floated. When the heavy rain stopped and skies went back to overcast, the system began floating. This is how solar charging works on overcast and heavy rainy days.

Here’s some more pictures documenting a rainy and overcast day with a series-parallel configurations. This performance occurred at the Airstream factory Terraport camping facility. Yes, there is electric at these campsites, but my 120V converter remains disconnected so I only use 12V battery power. I do plug into Shore power for A/C and refrigeration which are otherwise provided by propane.

[Fair_Enough]

Renogy makes curved mounts and simple straight mounts. To get panels level, I used curved on outside and standard on inside. Worked well.

IMO Zamp panels are over priced. I used Renogy Eclipse (premium $$), doing again I would go poly and less expensive with an eye towards 100W that is narrow enough.

I had 300W in parallel... ran 6AWG to roof combiner and recently added a panel I had laying around. A Zamp 80W.

Quick response to having converter off. The AC breaker turns off the converter - charger not the 12 volt loads. I only have mine on when on shore and don’t even have a converter in the new Toyhauler. 600W In series with 40A MPPT and 340 Ah LFP is amazing. Too bad Hightec solar inc. doesn’t make a long and narrow Airstream optimized panel size wise.
Clint

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by waninae39

this our setup with 360W solar with three panels in our as22FB

mostly victron energy parts

it shows the schematic plus what most of the parts look like

Hi

Looking at the picture, your Multi 3000 is packed in there pretty tight. You may want to pull what normally is the top cover (now the side cover) off from over the fans. They still are protected, so you just are improving air flow.

Bob

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Looking at the picture, your Multi 3000 is packed in there pretty tight. You may want to pull what normally is the top cover (now the side cover) off from over the fans. They still are protected, so you just are improving air flow.

Bob

You may be right about improving airflow, but it's also possible the opposite could happen. Back in the day, running a high end PC without the covers in place would drastically change the airflow patterns, which would ironically cause the PC to overheat even faster. Definitely worth an experiment, but no guarantee things will actually improve without the covers in place.

[Kyacker]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

You may be right about improving airflow, but it's also possible the opposite could happen. Back in the day, running a high end PC without the covers in place would drastically change the airflow patterns, which would ironically cause the PC to overheat even faster. Definitely worth an experiment, but no guarantee things will actually improve without the covers in place.

This threw me back to my old gamin’ rig building days. Maybe you can get a cooler for it. [emoji23]

[pteck]

Agreed about Zamp being expensive. Significantly more. They seem to differentiate themselves by offering a more premium experience with more support which may be useful for those looking for it. I don't particularly like their proprietary connections and panel sizes.

I do like the Renogy products. They hit a sweet spot between quality and value. The Renogy Eclipse line is a great option. Another good one is their "slim" panel that's a bit narrower yet longer, that may help fitment.

I mount my panels a bit different than most. I prefer to mount the frame with VHB and sikaflex, directly to the highest part of the rooftop. Then use mounts nearest the side of the trailer that tapers away, to keep the overall panel as low profile and flat as possible.

Idea is to keep the aesthetic and aero performance of the trailer to have as minimal drag as possible by keeping things slung low and streamlined. This may cause a few percentage points of solar efficiency lost as the panels have less airflow underneath. Yet it's worth the trade IMO to minimize towing drag and visibility of the panels. The mounting is more stable this way as well.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

You may be right about improving airflow, but it's also possible the opposite could happen. Back in the day, running a high end PC without the covers in place would drastically change the airflow patterns, which would ironically cause the PC to overheat even faster. Definitely worth an experiment, but no guarantee things will actually improve without the covers in place.

Hi

The Multi's are designed to be mounted vertically on a wall. The air flows from bottom to top in a "normal" mount. The fans are at what is usually top of the unit. In order to keep random "stuff" from falling into the fans, Victron puts a flat plate over the top of the unit. Air flows out through two smallish slots in on the sides up at the top. I suspect the flat plate also provides a place to set your cup of coffee while checking the lights and switches

If you pop that "cover", the fans behind it have grilles on them. Wires flopping around will not get into the fans. When mounted horizontally, what was the top plate is now a side plate. Stuff falling from the sky isn't going to be blocked by that plate anymore. No innards of the unit are exposed when you pull this plate.

Mounted in a restricted area, throttling air flow even further is generally not a good idea. Indeed, if you are changing the ducting that's a bad idea. In this case, all the ducting comes from other covers. By pulling the ex-top plate, all you are doing it freeing up air flow.

The idea is "cold air in this side / hot air out that side". You want to mix the hot and the cold as little as possible. A long path between the outlet and the inlet is how it gets done in this sort of install.

This applies to both the Multi-2000 and the Multi-3000. No idea if it also applies to others in the series. If you put the mounting screws back in the main chassis, it's not even very obvious that you pulled the "cover".

Bob

[pcskier]

Question for you guys:

If you use the factory prewire, do you still use a combiner box to make the connections for 2 panels (parallel) or 4 panels (series-parallel) with the prewire? I haven't decided on factory wire or not, just curious if you need a box if you do decide to use it. Or how you make the connections to the prewire otherwise. (this is on a 2014 that doesn't have the Zamp rooftop box. Just the prewire routed near the Fantastic fan that needs to be routed out on to the roof).

[daleyocum]

Originally Posted by pcskier

Question for you guys:

If you use the factory prewire, do you still use a combiner box to make the connections for 2 panels (parallel) or 4 panels (series-parallel) with the prewire? I haven't decided on factory wire or not, just curious if you need a box if you do decide to use it. Or how you make the connections to the prewire otherwise. (this is on a 2014 that doesn't have the Zamp rooftop box. Just the prewire routed near the Fantastic fan that needs to be routed out on to the roof).

I’d put a box on the roof where the wire emerges with the old prewire. The series connections could be made between the panels if you like. I used the AMSolar box but I had five panels all that in parallel meeting up with 6ga wire coming down. With the newer trailers with the Zamp box each series pair of panels could just plug in.