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03-20-2012, 06:08 AM
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#21
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
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1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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gnmostream
I installed LED lights in the old light fixtures in my 66 Tradewind. See post # 5 in the following link:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f447...des-88369.html
I hope this helps you.
Dan
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03-26-2012, 02:00 PM
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#23
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
1995 30' Excella
Bowie
, Maryland
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,345
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Interesting idea, which I guess works as long as you don't need anything to be frozen.
__________________
1995 Airstream Classic 30' Excella 1000
2014 Ram 2500 Crew Cab with Cummins 6.7L Diesel
Sold but not forgotten: 1991 Airstream B190
Sold: 2006 F-250 6.0L Powerstroke Supercab
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03-27-2012, 07:48 AM
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#24
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
![](/ugala/forums/images/icons/contributing_member.gif)
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Silverwoman
I read through the link and found it very interesting. It is just incredible that the fridge would only operate between 1.5 and 3 minutes per hour to keep food cold. I have the following comments:
1. No information given about how often or long the door was open during the 24 hour period.
2. Most folks keep there fridge around 0-4 degrees C, not 4-10 degrees C (50 degrees F).
3. It would be interesting to test the fridge with the door vertical to see how much this affects energy consumption.
4. I don't know why he did not just change the freezer thermostat.
This guy is thinking outside the box which is good.
Dan
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03-27-2012, 11:34 AM
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#25
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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This concept is of interest to me as it is to many others. Yet it is easy to lose sight of what is fundmental about a travel trailer and that is its mobility. Ability-to-travel. Restricting its use to only most-favorable climates & terrain goes against this, and the loss of utility is not minor. There is a point where sacrifices in search of a particularized ideal cancels perceived benefits, to state what should be obvious. (One can make the argument that tires are more important than electricity rather easily). Needs and desires getting mixed up.
An order of what is second is Water. Storage, access, cleanliness. Propane is a close third as it may be necessary to boil the water, or to heat the tanks in which fresh & waste water are stored. It can also provide lighting. While a manual water pump would suffice for access (and is on my list of what to investigate), electricity for this is a convenience. Propane will run all food storage & preparation as well as heat the inhabitants and provide their lighting with the additional benefit of running an I/C engine. It neither deteriorates in storage nor is hampered by heavy weight in its being.
Electricity is then fourth as it has very little to do with running the trailer. (Exterior lamps, etc, can all be run by the tow vehicle). On board electrical generation is essentially for convenience once beyond air conditioning. We enjoy what it can do for us, but for a travel trailer the need to be connected to utilities at some point or another is really controlled by propane capacity plus water & food storage. (One can convert to diesel to eliminate propane, but with no ascertainable advantage. Water is flat non-negotiable).
That our society is electrically-dependent does not change the equation. Telephones, Internet and the rest (entertainment), while personally important, is not to the end of a vehicle limited in means, capacities, thus range. Electricity, therefore, is a convenience as the need to plug in sooner or later is within the nature of the machine. Fundamental to it's definition as a vehicle. The source of electricity is not vital (to the trailer), but the limit of what one can do to store electricity is. This is the crux of the thing: storage capacities.
The old order of shelter, water, food is not altered by using a travel trailer as one's abode (it is what I am doing), but mobility should be seen as analogous to a roof on a house. It comes first. All else is secondary with a fixed order of importance. And limits on all due to weight & size concerns. Propane makes it possible.
All contributors on this thread express much the same, that, extending range between "utility access" is a desirable goal. But it has to be seen in light of how these different systems function together to ascertain where modifications are beneficial as it is the effect on the whole which begins the disarrangement in the definition of travel trailer.
A travel trailer is a bit of genius made possible by petroleum. Without those liquid/gas products a TT is little more than a highly expensive and inefficient piece of real estate improvement (for its high embedded energy cost and low thermal mass if for no others). We may wish it to be a low-draw abode after initial capital investment, but we can push things too far without consideration of highest and best use foremost. Wishing to travel at arms length from others with the fewest number of inputs is the critical insight.
Fixed abode alternatives have a far lower cost per square foot initially and long term, and even "mobile homes" are much cheaper on the same basis. Mobility is central and unavoidable when we speak of travel trailers. It is itself a desire, not a need. And to which we sacrifice to acquire, maintain and improve. For this thing is, at heart, a luxury given that there are more sensible alternatives strictly from the viewpoint of energy consumption per capita. Mobility means a sacrifice on every input necessary to the maintenance of life -- the storage thereof -- but in their order of importance.
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03-28-2012, 08:37 AM
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#26
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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The fridge cited benefits in 2 ways. One is that a chest type tends to trap the cold better and the other is that a freezer is usually better insulated. That, and the elevated temperatures noted will help keep the energy budget down. A typical modern EnergyStar rated kitchen fridge will run on about 1 kwh/day.
The 500 watts max for the TT sounds about right. Energy harvest from that is likely to be 1 or 2 kwh/day.
The battery weight comment is also right on. Lead acid batteries have about 12 watt hours per pound usable energy storage at a draw of 1 watt per pound. Most TT's come with 100 to 150 pounds of battery. Lithium ion batteries cost ten times as much and have an energy density about 5 times as much.
There are dreams here. My apologies for being rather harsh on the ideologies behind them. I see entirely too many folks who swallow the dreams as being real and find out the hard way that there are reasons that the scenarios described here are exceptional rather than routine. It is no big deal if you can afford it but many are not able to spend money that way without serious consequence elsewhere.
This is like the guy over on another forum who chipped in on a fuel cell thread about his experience. He managed to acquire a 75 kw fuel cell manufactured for hybrid buses in Canada and installed a half dozen hydrogen tanks on his moho for it. The problem was that this was presented as a viable option for anyone in contrast to the typical couple a hundred watt fuel cells commonly found for RV's. It's nice when money is no object but for many of us, we have to be careful about where we put our funds.
Quote:
That our society is electrically-dependent does not change the equation.
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Do keep in mind that our energy budgets have significant impacts on health, safety, and life fulfilment. Electricity is just one form that is convenient because it is so easily transformed into other forms.
There are some deep philosophical and psychological implications in the presumption that using less energy - in any form - is better in some way. Experience tends to go the other way and that means there is a dissonance to resolve.
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03-28-2012, 10:17 AM
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#27
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3 Rivet Member ![](/ugala/forums/images/3rivet.gif)
Vintage Kin Owner
Scottsdale
, Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 176
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In history people used small mobile homes ~ covered wagons before the automobile and travel trailers after the auto. The times called for mobility in seek of employment, when they had to travel to find work. They were also recreational for the wealthy. For many years now people used them for recreational temporary homes and our lives have changed greatly because of oil and technology. The technological advances currently available & in development open the door to many new possibilities as we move into the future, the way we will live is not something most people think about or can envision, naturally. For example, the RepRap self-replicating rapid-prototyping machine giving us the ability to replicate a bolt or any part of a trailer. This already exists. The travel trailer utility for people reflects our current culture which is something ever changing and evolving.
Becoming petroleum independent is critical and intuitive. The days of cheap oil are coming to an end. We are entering a time when we need to think outside the box and be open to ideas that are much different than what we know now. What ever I can do to become energy independent is of interest to me taking into account meeting my basic needs in a slightly different way in comparison to living in a permanent structure which is the norm today. My life style vision is about living in a tiny home. My trailer could be temporary because I'm also interested in building a earth bag tiny home which would be my base when I'm not hopping around the country in my trailer. It's just a matter finding the way to do it.
I agree propane is essential but can be reduced or substituted in some cases if the alternative is efficient enough to meet your needs. What about all the free energy we have like solar & wind? For me personally, the mobility of a trailer means being able to go to favorable locations reducing my need for heating & cooling so I see mobility as an advantage. I'd like to be able to live off grid when I want and still have the ability to hook up to electric when I want to. 200+ watts on a steel roof is doable. 4 golf cart batteries don't weigh too much if you keep the interior contents weight down. The guy at the battery store said lithium ion batteries for my application would not be advised because of cost & safety. Plan and weigh & measure & adjust accordingly.
Thanks for all the really great comments everyone. It's interesting to me that there will always be people arguing against an new idea instead of asking questions or doing research or trying to be open & think about how it "can" work, not how it "can't" work. It's an automatic knee jerk reaction. Best to learn as much about it as you can before forming an opinion & be open to changing your view as new evidence & discoveries emerge.
I don't disagree with the points made. I'm in the learning process curve myself.
__________________
Trailer Geek
'70 Streamline Duchess
Toyota Sequoia SR5
'58 Shasta Canned Ham
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03-28-2012, 12:18 PM
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#28
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3 Rivet Member ![](/ugala/forums/images/3rivet.gif)
Vintage Kin Owner
Scottsdale
, Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 176
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I found some more threads on this topic here.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f382...est-87469.html
Just thought I'd mention ~ I have a stripped down trailer ready to design from the ground up as opposed to many others here who might an aluminum roof or needing to work within the existing trailer fully furnished without the advantages of access to wiring or redesign challenges for example. And when a trailer is your only home, prioritization of it would be the same as other people put into their permanent homes like mortgage payments or rent, utility costs & maintenance. I know some of the equipment is expensive so I'll do it a little at a time. The freezer conversion would be a good option for someone like me who goes to the store almost everyday for fresh food so I don't need a freezer. I'm also considering an evap portable unit 12 volt unit for cooling. Propane for all devises that heat up or provide heat. Solar/12 volt pump for water or hand pump for kitchen & outdoor solar showers work sometimes too. Of course I will be able to hook up to electric when I want to & other little details like sanitation, water hauling, back up generator, etc need to be in the plan.
I don't need much. When you think about what you really need it's not what all the things people own. Possession and ownership of all that stuff is burdensome & costly in my opinion so I don't want it. Instead, I want time to enjoy my family & my life so reducing living costs means not needing to work as much giving me more time to do what I want like volunteer work & learning & teaching. Not to mention reducing stress that leads to good heath.
__________________
Trailer Geek
'70 Streamline Duchess
Toyota Sequoia SR5
'58 Shasta Canned Ham
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03-29-2012, 08:36 AM
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#29
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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re: "Becoming petroleum independent is critical and intuitive. The days of cheap oil are coming to an end."
what is interesting to me is that all of the data available contradicts this thesis.
it is in the realm of the 'peak resource' mantra and ideology that has been like a social virus since the 60's. It has continually been proven wrong over and over and over yet it persists anyway. Paul Erlich, where are you?
as for the wagon and mobility - a friend's grandparents used one. The moved from MO to NV complete with the print shop. They lost a child in TX (birthing in a covered wagon was risky). He tapped the line through NV to get news to publish. .. but, for the most part, most folks back then lived within walking distance of where they were born, mobility wasn't an issue, finding enough food to avoid starvation and fuel to keep warm were difficult enough.
I mean, it's wonderful that we are rich enough as a society so that when activists buy into this stuff we can afford the billions spent in fruitless endeavors but it does seem rather a tragedy that that effort and wealth is not spent for 'out of the box' thinking (i.e. entrepreneurial innovation and invention).
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03-30-2012, 01:06 AM
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#30
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3 Rivet Member ![](/ugala/forums/images/3rivet.gif)
Vintage Kin Owner
Scottsdale
, Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
re: "Becoming petroleum independent is critical and intuitive. The days of cheap oil are coming to an end."
what is interesting to me is that all of the data available contradicts this thesis.
it is in the realm of the 'peak resource' mantra and ideology that has been like a social virus since the 60's. It has continually been proven wrong over and over and over yet it persists anyway. Paul Erlich, where are you?
as for the wagon and mobility - a friend's grandparents used one. The moved from MO to NV complete with the print shop. They lost a child in TX (birthing in a covered wagon was risky). He tapped the line through NV to get news to publish. .. but, for the most part, most folks back then lived within walking distance of where they were born, mobility wasn't an issue, finding enough food to avoid starvation and fuel to keep warm were difficult enough.
I mean, it's wonderful that we are rich enough as a society so that when activists buy into this stuff we can afford the billions spent in fruitless endeavors but it does seem rather a tragedy that that effort and wealth is not spent for 'out of the box' thinking (i.e. entrepreneurial innovation and invention).
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Well, renewable energy is what is coming. The price we pay for gas is much lower than other countries. Our federal gas tax is only 18 cents. It's a few dollars in other countries. That increase in gas prices helps move them toward renewables & away from fossil fuels evident in the advanced development of solar. Spain has a many solar thermal plants. Germany is the world leader in installed solar photovoltaic panels — and they also just shut down seven of their oldest nuclear reactors. China recently unveiled a high-speed train that travels at up to 1,000 kilometers per hour, or approx. 621 miles per hour, through Maglev lines in airless tubes underground. There's really so many amazing things happening around the world but we don't see much progress here. Higher gas prices = more incentive? I don't think we will run out of oil. I think it will become unaffordable for the majority of us and there's a chance, if we don't start using alternatives, it could disrupt everything we depend on like food supply.
You can run your car on water. All it takes is to build a "water-burning hybrid" is the installation of a simple, often home-made electrolysis cell under the hood of your vehicle. The key is to take electricity from the car's electrical system to electrolyze water into a gaseous mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, often referred to as Brown's Gas or HHO or oxyhydrogen. This might be an alternative we use to someday.
__________________
Trailer Geek
'70 Streamline Duchess
Toyota Sequoia SR5
'58 Shasta Canned Ham
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03-30-2012, 04:53 AM
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#31
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4 Rivet Member ![](/ugala/forums/images/4rivet.gif)
1986 34.5' Airstream 345
Alliance
, Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 262
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Yes anything is possible when you ignore the laws of physics, economics, and common sense. We should be developing other forms of energy. When they make economic sense they will become the norm. You can't legislate practicality. Taxing oil to pay for the developement of alternatives is not the place of the government. We can see their track record stinks in this respect. The market place is the true test of technologies. People will buy what makes sense, not what they are forced too. To each his own.
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03-30-2012, 05:15 AM
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#32
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
2021 25' Globetrotter
Jamestown
, Rhode Island
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehes
Yes anything is possible when you ignore the laws of physics, economics, and common sense. We should be developing other forms of energy. When they make economic sense they will become the norm. You can't legislate practicality. Taxing oil to pay for the developement of alternatives is not the place of the government. We can see their track record stinks in this respect. The market place is the true test of technologies. People will buy what makes sense, not what they are forced too. To each his own.
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I sooo agree! I would not actually mind a tax on fuel if the money really went to support the development of new technology to lower the cost of power but we all know how our government handles money.....
In time there will be an answer.
Bruce
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03-30-2012, 06:02 AM
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#33
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4 Rivet Member ![](/ugala/forums/images/4rivet.gif)
2004 28' International CCD
Birmingham
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 323
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I really appreciate and enjoy threads like this!
A couple of quick comments ...
Things are changing quickly and we should all have an open mind to this change. What was true two years ago is not true today. For example, repeatedly this thread has cited that 500 watts is generally the max real estate on an Airstream. That is no longer true ... I have measured and can confirm that I could fit as many as 12 of the smaller AM Solar 100 watt panels on my 28's roof. Yes, 1200 watts would fit if I was so inclined.
Yes, you can run AC off a battery bank but a readily portable and "affordable-for-me" solution does not exist today (March 2012) that I know of. However, we are FAST approaching a time when there will be affordable lithium solutions for our Airstreams ... I expect within the next couple of years.
National Luna makes some of the most efficient 12V fridge freezers in the world. I keep one in my vehicle and it works perpetually off a secondary battery in my truck.
I'm fascinated by the water and sewer issue. These seem to get less attention but, I fear, will become bigger problems for us (especially our children) going forward.
Thanks for a great thread ... and the new ideas and solutions offered up!
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03-31-2012, 08:33 AM
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#34
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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re: " We should be developing other forms of energy. When they make economic sense they will become the norm. You can't legislate practicality"
the fact is that we are developing other forms of energy (and its related commerce). The incentives are huge. There are many examples (cold fusion, anyone?) and even the PTO's refusal to even look at perpetual machines is testimony.
but still, the pressure is to 'legislate practicality' because the practical matters of how the world actually works and such nonsense as cost effectiveness so get in the way of fantasy and ideology. (the result is massive waste of government resources, but that doesn't seem to matter much to many)
re: " repeatedly this thread has cited that 500 watts is generally the max real estate on an Airstream. That is no longer true" -- "generally" doesn't mean "absolute" ... so many of these discussions on topics like this devolve into nitpicking and nonsense. Sure you can squeeze more panels on your rig. I could just see it now - a 8x30 foot over-roof on a 70's era Sovereign complete with automated sun angle rack and whatnot. The shade would help keep the trailer cool, too. The problem is, where would you keep the batteries needed for that size solar system? (ah, yes, the HDT tow vehicle!)
There are 'practical' concerns when it comes to 'alternative' energy and the biggest two of these are energy density and energy storage. Advances in the modern era in bringing cost effectiveness to solutions to these concerns has been incremental and, in light of everything else, rather small. The promises and 'real soon now' and hype, however have been anything but small.
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07-15-2012, 07:30 PM
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#36
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
2018 33' Classic
2015 30' FB FC Bunk
2012 30' Flying Cloud
Grand Rabbits
, Michigan
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 612
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I think this video is an interesting study... It is LONG, and there are in fact eight parts to it. I never watch lengthy videos, due to my lack of patience and also a clear understanding that most of what is passed by way of the internet is garbage. However, after watching the first portion, I was compelled to watch all of it:
__________________
Hibby
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07-15-2012, 08:27 PM
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#37
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Rivet Master ![](/ugala/forums/images/5rivet.gif)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,190
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My friends just bought a Tesla electric car
I know....they cost about $130 K
But they run off of 77 laptop batteries. They are sick fast off the line, like Ferrari fast. Zero to 60 in 3.8 seconds.
Maybe laptop type batteries might be the direction to look?????
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