Neutral-ground in Honda & Yamaha gennies?

[DarrellT]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but do the recommended gennies need a N-G plug to be safe?

http://noshockzone.org/generator-gro...utral-bonding/

D

[alano]

To be safe from all hazards you would need to bond neutral to ground AND connect to an earth ground rod when operating the Honda/Yamaha generators independent from RV pedestals. I've never met anyone who actually does this. I think for the most part folks use the N-G plugs to satisfy complaining GFCI outlets.

[TG Twinkie]

Another thread on the same topic.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155249

[AWCHIEF]

Don't think I have ever seen anyone ground a portable generator. Last time this same up I was dry camping in the Keys and surrounded by people (about 40 trailers) using generators. I made the rounds and saw no grounds being used.

[A W Warn]

I spoke with a rep at Honda this week regarding this issue. I ask how to resolve the issues of (1) the plug in tester gives reversed polarity readings, and (2) the GFCIs do not functioning as they should. Mostly he avoided giving specific advice.

The only specific response I got from him was; "Honda does not recommend bonding the ground and neutral".

[A W Warn]

In my post above, I also should have explained:
(1) I was asking specifically about my 2000 Honda generator
(2) I was asking about using a home made 120v drop cord end replacement plug with a jumper wire between the neutral and ground, if the generator would be harmed by using this plug.
(3) I was asking if the generator would be harmed when plugged in at my house where a neutral to ground bond is part of the electrical system (as required by NEC)

Mostly I got silence, and the occasional "ask your electrician".

[TG Twinkie]

The best answer I can give you is to contact a generator manufacturer like Generac who installs generators as backup power for homes.
IMHO. There is no difference whether it is a 2,000 watt or a 20KW Generator.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

In my post above, I also should have explained:
(1) I was asking specifically about my 2000 Honda generator
(2) I was asking about using a home made 120v drop cord end replacement plug with a jumper wire between the neutral and ground, if the generator would be harmed by using this plug.
(3) I was asking if the generator would be harmed when plugged in at my house where a neutral to ground bond is part of the electrical system (as required by NEC)

Mostly I got silence, and the occasional "ask your electrician".

No....you only need the N/G plug when using your genset for the AS to prevent a fault code on a circuit monitor or surge protector





Bob

[J. Morgan]

I have thought this through a lot, there is no good safety reason to either bond the "neutral" and ground or to drive a ground stake.

It might be beneficial however to connect the ground lug on the generator to the trailer frame, but I never have.

(I put neutral in quotes above because in this case, (unbonded), there really is not a neutral on inverter generators and some others)


Gradiens super tenui glacie.

[Al Boondy]

Originally Posted by TG Twinkie

The best answer I can give you is to contact a generator manufacturer like Generac who installs generators as backup power for homes.
IMHO. There is no difference whether it is a 2,000 watt or a 20KW Generator.

There is no difference concerning the size of the generator, but there is a big difference between a house and a travel trailer and between grid power and generator power.

Most bu generator transfer switches don't switch the neutral so ground rod isn't required. Some do switch neutral and rod is required. Some local codes require it either way. Some manufacturers require ground rod some do not. Legal reasons I suspect.

So the answer from Generac may be no while the answer from an inspector is yes while fed codes say sometimes.


I've never seen an install without one for 15 bucks it worth it just to keep inspectors happy.

[Al Boondy]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I have thought this through a lot, there is no good safety reason to either bond the "neutral" and ground or to drive a ground stake.

Ditto and I'll go one better.
If the trailer happens to be incorrectly wired (line and neutral switched at plug and neutral and ground bonded in sub panel) touching the skin could shock you IF generator was grounded but there would be no path to ground thru you if it wasn't.

Pushing it but any excuse to do less work while camping works for me. :-)

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I have thought this through a lot, there is no good safety reason to either bond the "neutral" and ground or to drive a ground stake.

It might be beneficial however to connect the ground lug on the generator to the trailer frame, but I never have.

(I put neutral in quotes above because in this case, (unbonded), there really is not a neutral on inverter generators and some others)


Gradiens super tenui glacie.

Originally Posted by Al Boondy

There is no difference concerning the size of the generator, but there is a big difference between a house and a travel trailer and between grid power and generator power.

Most bu generator transfer switches don't switch the neutral so ground rod isn't required. Some do switch neutral and rod is required. Some local codes require it either way. Some manufacturers require ground rod some do not. Legal reasons I suspect.

So the answer from Generac may be no while the answer from an inspector is yes while fed codes say sometimes.


I've never seen an install without one for 15 bucks it worth it just to keep inspectors happy.

Originally Posted by Al Boondy

Ditto and I'll go one better.
If the trailer happens to be incorrectly wired (line and neutral switched at plug and neutral and ground bonded in sub panel) touching the skin could shock you IF generator was grounded but there would be no path to ground thru you if it wasn't.

Pushing it but any excuse to do less work while camping works for me. :-)

EXCEPT....if I want to use a circuit monitor while on my 2000i, w/o the n/g plug you WILL get a ground fault code....

Bob

[A W Warn]

Using my Honda 2000, I know power is at all of the receptacles and all of the appliances will work when plugged in.

But, the GFCI's in my trailer, when tested, will not trip in ground fault condition while the trailer is connected to the generator with a floating neutral. The kitchen, bath, and outdoor GFCIs do not function as they should.

The issue that concerns me is SAFETY.

When those GFCIs are not working properly; What can happen if the electric coffee pot falls into the sink while you are washing dishes? What can happen if the hair dryer gets dropped onto the wet rug you are standing on? What happen when using an electric tool while it is wet where you are standing?

And another concern; If one chooses to use the home made ground/neutral grounding bonding plug, can the generator frame become energized, since the neutral does carry voltage. The generator has no ground rod, but the trailer is setting with the jacks down. In this condition could someone touching the generator get shocked, while it is running and connected to the trailer?

[Al and Missy]

In grid connected systems like residential power the hot line has 120 volts with respect to neutral which is bonded to ground and a ground rod. So the potential from hot line to earth ground is 120 volts. With a trailer which has no connection between neutral and ground, no connection to shore power, and operating fron a generator which is not grounded, there is no reference to ground and no risk of shock. But if somehow the generator gets referenced to earth ground this may no longer be true. The safest approach is to ground the generator and the shell of the trailer. This is typically a requirement in military equipment shelter specifications but I have not seen it done with RVs.

Al

[J. Morgan]

The thing about using an unbonded inverter generator is that the earth/neutral is the thing that makes much of the shock hazard.

For example, the "energized shell" that we often hear about is almost an impossibility with an unbonded generator.

Since the shell of the trailer and all within the trailer is not energized, much of the reason for employing GFI circuits is not in play.

In other words, with the shell of the trailer not effectively providing half of the circuit, the chance of electrocution is drastically reduced from the get go.

That said, dropping a blow dryer in a sink or tub full of water while a body part is in the water would be an exception where GFI would provide a serious advantage.






Gradiens super tenui glacie.

[lsbrodsky]

What has happened to us that we need a generator to power a hair dryer, while boondocking?


Larry

[Al Boondy]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

What has happened to us that we need a generator to power a hair dryer, while boondocking?


Larry

Got married?

[J. Morgan]

Different people, different uses and expectations.....

I have been "boondocking" at my place of work for about the last 100 days. My wife expects to use her blow dryer....

(We are plugged into electric)


Gradiens super tenui glacie.

[jcanavera]

I'm no electrician but I've done a lot of reading on the topic and I while I have done a lot of reading by what looks like qualifed spokesmen, I'm still a little uneasy with this concept.

In my simplistic mind I see some repetitive statements.

First some surge equipment and GFI outlets will fail to work correctly in an RV if you use a portable generator and do not have a neutral/ground jumpered plug.

Second, grounding rods are unreliable means of grounding a portable generator.

Thirdly if you are using a portable generator as auxiliary power in a home with the generator running through a transfer switch, the ground will be supplied by the grounding bus within the home's power box. In that case you should not use a neutral/ground plug in the portable generator. I assume in this case that the home has proper wiring with grounded outlets and that the devices you use have grounded plugs.

I feel comfortable with the third paragraph regarding the use of the generator at home with a transfer switch. The other two items, I'm still not comfortable with.

My backyard neighbor is a retired electrician. I'm going to have a sit down with him and see if he can clear this info with me.

Jack

[Tn Traveler]

I am not an electrician. I do have a 12 KW diesel generator on my boat. I asked an ABYC Certified marine electrician about the grounding. He said there was no need to ground it. The neutral and ground are bonded inside the generator. What the electrical theory behind that is I do not know, but it works.