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CamanoIsland · 05-11-2018, 09:40 PM

I'm having two 100 watt solar panels mounted on my 19 Bambi. I know I can buy Lithium batteries from LifeBlue, a 200 amp hour is $1800. Is there anything comparable to the Lithium that is less expensive or do I lose so much storage capacity it's better to bite the bullet for the LifeBlue.

Any thoughts?

**Rocinante** · 05-11-2018, 09:52 PM

We’re fans of lithium (LiFePO) batteries, despite the initial acquisition cost. If you go that way you’ll need a Battery Management System (BMS), which in some cases comes with the batteries. You’ll also want something that can tell you the current state of charge at all times, because voltage alone tells you very little. Of course you’ll also want a lithium-compatible charger.

**wulfraat** · 05-11-2018, 09:52 PM

I would recommend you do a lot more research before you invest in lithium.

They are generally speaking not just drop-in plug and play replacements for lead acid.

$1,800 is on the cheaper side for 200ah, so be careful as you get what you pay for generally speaking.

Trout Bum · 05-12-2018, 09:49 AM

Should you go forward with the LiFePo4 purchase or, plan to do so in the future, ensure the solar controller you're having installed with the new PV's is compatible with charging that type of battery. There is a major difference in charging profiles between LiFePo4 and more traditional batteries.

**Rocinante** · 05-12-2018, 09:53 AM

Yep, generally quite a few things to consider when considering a switch to lithium.

daleyocum · 05-12-2018, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfraat

I would recommend you do a lot more research before you invest in lithium.

They are generally speaking not just drop-in plug and play replacements for lead acid.

$1,800 is on the cheaper side for 200ah, so be careful as you get what you pay for generally speaking.

I concur. You’ll see lots of positive comments on this forum about Battleborn lithium batteries that are only a little more expensive. Battleborn batteries are spiffy because they integrate a lot of battery management electronics inside the battery housing itself. They are harder to damage. They go for $950 each with free shipping. Superb customer service on top of that.

Wayne&Sam · 05-12-2018, 12:05 PM

LifeBlues are about $50 more than Battleborn, have similar BMS built in and have built in Bluetooth monitoring. 10 year warranty on LB, 3 on BB. LB is imported, BB says "designed and assembled in US" (does that mean imported cells?)

**Rocinante** · 05-12-2018, 01:11 PM

Yes, cells imported from China. LifeBlues generally have a pretty good rep. AM solar often installs them if the customer won’t go for Victron batteries.

uncle_bob · 05-12-2018, 02:19 PM

Hi

Pretty good bet when going to Lithium's:

1) you will upgrade your solar charge controller

2) you will upgrade your converter / charger

3) you will put in some sort of battery capacity monitor (fuel gauge)

4) you will address the issues of "no charge below freezing" somehow

None of that is un-doable. Not all of it is vital. You can work around this or that. Most people do indeed hit the items on the list.

It's not rocket science to do these things. It just costs money and takes time. You can do the work yourself or have a pro do it. Look at what is involved and make the DIY / pro decision early. If you are going the pro route, let them help you with picking the parts to use.

Bob

Wayne&Sam · 05-12-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Pretty good bet when going to Lithium's:

1) you will upgrade your solar charge controller

2) you will upgrade your converter / charger

3) you will put in some sort of battery capacity monitor (fuel gauge)

4) you will address the issues of "no charge below freezing" somehow

Bob

#4 is built in to both Battleborn and LifeBlue.

#3 is built in to LifeBlue

Wayne&Sam · 05-12-2018, 03:27 PM

I've only dabbled around the edges of going lithium, reading things on this forum.

For our particular usage, I'm intrigued about using the Battleborn or Lifeblue replacements for stock batteries and keeping them in the stock battery box.

I'll probably add solar at some point (have a 100 watt portable panel now that I've used on occasion) but for now the better investment seems to be the lithium.

I'm not interested in running the air conditioner, micro wave, etc. off of batteries. I just want to extended the four or five days we typically get running the 12 volt systems. We also tend not to camp in spots that get full sun much of the day. So spending a couple of grand on lithiums and a new converter seems like a better idea than spending a couple go grand on solar.

We'll recharge the lithiums when we go to a full hook up site to dump the tanks and fill the water tank.

Am I missing something?

**Rocinante** · 05-12-2018, 06:24 PM

Nah, keeping it as simple as possible is fine. I suggest you reach out to the folks at Battle Born and the distributor for Life Blue and ask then your questions directly.

uncle_bob · 05-13-2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam

I've only dabbled around the edges of going lithium, reading things on this forum.

For our particular usage, I'm intrigued about using the Battleborn or Lifeblue replacements for stock batteries and keeping them in the stock battery box.

.......

Hi

If you put the Life Blue's in a metal battery box outside the trailer, I'd bet that the BTLE gizmo will have a really tough time talking to your phone. It's a microwave signal and you have a lot of metal shielding.

Since theses batteries are all just a tad bigger than the stock lead acid's, I'm still a bit unclear on how well they fit in the already crowded battery box ....

Bob

Wayne&Sam · 05-13-2018, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

If you put the Life Blue's in a metal battery box outside the trailer, I'd bet that the BTLE gizmo will have a really tough time talking to your phone. It's a microwave signal and you have a lot of metal shielding.

Since theses batteries are all just a tad bigger than the stock lead acid's, I'm still a bit unclear on how well they fit in the already crowded battery box ....

Bob

Interesting thought, Bob. I decided to try a test. I linked my phone via bluetooth to the Sony in the Airstream and played music. I put the phone in the battery box and closed the cover. It stumbled for a second or two but then played just fine. So that may not be an issue, but a good question for Lifeblue.

I did some measuring and it seems they will fit in the battery box. I may have to remove the cover for installation as that gives an added half inch of clearance. Then the cover can go back on.

uncle_bob · 05-13-2018, 02:59 PM

Hi

The key. point about the batteries is that they run BTLE (= BlueTooth Low Energy). Put simply, it's an even lower power / shorter range version compared to "real" BlueTooth.

With any RF system, antennas matter a lot. An antenna embedded in the battery will (likely) be up against a wall of the battery box. That's not a real good thing. Does it face this way or that way .... who knows ....

The only way to really know if it works is to put a couple of batteries in the box and see if it reliably links up with a variety of devices. That sounds like a major PIA, just to check it out.

Bob

Wayne&Sam · 05-13-2018, 04:19 PM

Thanks for that info Bob. When I get serious about this, I'll check it out.

SilverHouseDreams · 05-15-2018, 10:26 AM

I hadn't heard of LifeBlue before, I do appreciate how much technical detail they give in comparison to BattleBorn. Overall they seem to be pretty similar and all the same requirements for parallel enhancements apply, as outlined for charge management...it is nice that LifeBlue includes Bluetooth support for actually seeing the details of the battery, but as others mentioned BTLE may not work well going through the battery box and the (2 layers of) skin of the trailer...its hard to say, because as uncle_bob states antenna placement would really matter.

BTLE doesn't necessarily have less range than any other BT, it really depends on the radio in use and the antenna placement. BTLE just allows lower energy levels to be used at the *same* range but with lower throughput, which is of no consequence here. It isn't like normal RF where less energy explicitly implies less range, this isn't analogue...it has to do with error handling and power negotiation/adjustment of the radio within the protocol stack itself. Technically BTLE has the same range specifications as the former versions of BT.

I may have gone with the LifeBlue 200Ah if I had known about it before I bought the BattleBorn. It is lower cost than buying 2 BattleBorn packs and does include the Bluetooth app integration, which means it saves you at least $100 even if you have to end up buying a Victron, but if the LifeBlue BTLE connection works in your setup it saves you >$335 ($100 battery acquisition, $235 for the BMV-712 kit from AMSolar).

But as outlined, regardless of lithium battery brand you will need a new converter/charger (including solar charger), you will need to address the TV voltage difference issues, and you *may* need a BMS depending on if it is included in the battery or not (e.g. Victron does not have internal battery management).

If you think you will possibly go lithium in the future, make sure any solar charge controller you buy is programmable (e.g. Victron Smart line, and not Zamp). If you decide you want to upgrade your converter/charger to prolong the life of your existing lead acid battery, make sure the converter is lithium capable...as these are not truly plug and play.

Lithium can be plug and play, but there are a lot of compromises you will make...and all of them take away from the value of the Li battery (e.g. you won't get the full higher capacity you are expecting).

uncle_bob · 05-15-2018, 11:11 AM

Hi

If you decided you wanted some 200AH LiveBlue's right now today .... sorry about that. None available. They are being redesigned to the "HC" version. Apparently enough people ran into the low max discharge current numbers on the 'SC" model.

While all BT radios are supposed to work against this or that spec, in reality there is a lot of "enhancement" going on. The range of a number of BT gizmos I have is well beyond what it should be by spec. Is somebody cheating on the high power end? who knows. BTLE is targeted against low power. That encourages people to "cheat" in the other direction..... I have a number of BTLE gizmos that have less than impressive range compared to my phone running into an entertainment system.

Bob

Wayne&Sam · 05-15-2018, 01:48 PM

Yes I noticed they were being redesigned. I was looking at two 100AH batteries as they would fit my existing battery box

uncle_bob · 05-15-2018, 02:28 PM

Hi

Even with the 2 X 100AH approach, the current limit on the Life Blue's seems a bit low. Inverters tend to be a bit nasty at startup. Anything with a motor running through an inverter would be an issue as well. I can't think of a major motor load on your typical AS inverter though.

Bob