Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-10-2015, 12:58 PM   #15
TinCan
 
graysailor's Avatar

 
2016 30' Classic
Apache Junction , Arizona
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 798
Interesting thread. The cost is a little prohibitive at this time but may prove to be a break even giving the live expectancy of the lithiums. Having a special charger which is a must is another thing to deal with. Just a wait and see for me.
__________________

__________________
TinCan
graysailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 02:03 PM   #16
Rivet Master
 
2016 30' Classic
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,245
Images: 1
Just some information from my experience.

I've been using LiPo batteries for UAV's for the past few years (Different chemistry than the types being discussed, LiFeYPO4) and there have been rare instances of them catching on fire. And in all of them the reason was usually one of three reasons. 1. Battery was physically damaged in a UAV crash and should have been retired/destroyed. 2. Battery was discharged below 20% capacity, damaging the cells. 3. Battery was abused during the charging process.

With the rapid growth of personal UAV's like the Phantom I am actually surprised that we haven't heard about more instances of this happening due to user abuse.

All of these fall into the user error category. #1 isn't likely in our situation. #2 and 3 are addressed by using an 'approved' battery monitoring and charging setup.

As Lew mentions most lithium setups have electronics that will shut the cells down at 20% charge remaining. The chargers are 'special' in that they have the ability to closely monitor the charge cycle and 'balance' all of the cells to the same voltage which is very important to the life of the batteries.

An example is the charger that I use for 9ah 6 cell batteries made by RevoLectrix, a PowerLab 8. I can setup an exact charging cycle for this battery controlling the rate of charge and how it handles the cutoff cycle (similar to bulk, absorb, float of a Magnum). The charger is basically very similar to a Magnum charger and when hooked to a computer I can see all of the parameters so that I can log data about a specific battery to monitor its age, wear and tear characteristics.
__________________

__________________
Gary
2015 Classic
2015 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax
ProPride
NVPN
ghaynes755 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 02:53 PM   #17
Rivet Master
 
mutcth's Avatar

 
2007 23' Safari SE
Central , Connecticut
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,632
This is all fascinating stuff. I know on the Class B forums, everyone's aflutter about lithium, especially as it starts becoming standard equipment.

I'm excited because the next trailer I get will have a more serious solar system, and I don't want to give up too much space for the battery bank or too much weight...

Tom
__________________
Now: 2007 Safari SE 23' "Anne" towed by 2011 Dodge Durango "Herman"
Before: Argosy Minuet and T@B, towed by various Honda Odysseys
mutcth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 04:44 PM   #18
Rivet Master
 
IanPoulin's Avatar
 
2011 28' International
Aldie , Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 539
Images: 4
that's it! early adopter...
__________________
2011 Airstream International Serenity 28'
2016 Ford F250 Crew 4x4 KR Diesel
IanPoulin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 07:07 PM   #19
E Pluribus Aluminus
 
Jaxon's Avatar
 
2008 34' Classic S/O
1967 22' Safari
2005 30' Classic
Rockport , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,214
Images: 10
Send a message via AIM to Jaxon Send a message via Yahoo to Jaxon
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJRitchie View Post
Early adoption is expensive. Hopefully manufacturing costs will come down and other industries will adopt this technology so the RV industry can take advantage. Kelvin
Prevost has and so have several of the outfits that convert them into RV’s & tour busses.

Makes a significant reduction in weight and space when you switch to lithium batts. Or, keep those same factory weight specs (from the old AGM batts) and increase the number of lithium batteries for greater off-the-grid capabilitiy.

Whatever... Gomer sure knew how to sum it up...
__________________
Bill & Kim
WBCCI 7005 * AIR 9218
The trouble with trouble is it always starts out as fun...
Jaxon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 07:49 PM   #20
4 Rivet Member
 
ronstory's Avatar
 
1975 23' Safari
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 305
Images: 2
One additional point about freezing the 'standard' LiFePO4 batteries... it takes a bit to freeze them. Typically they are rated a minimum usable temp of -4F (or -20C). I have one in my motorcycle and when it got to 24F in Porland recently, I got naturally curious (it's a disease ) and it started up the bike with zero hesitation.

My land rover TDI was very lethargic starting at those temps, even with a 3 month old Costco 800 CCA Lead acid battery.

Any idea what the usable temperature range will be for the new batteries?
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
ronstory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:05 PM   #21
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,282
Using the Lithiums in low temps is not really the problem......charging them is!

I had a very long conversation with AM Solar today, and the batteries that they are showing on their web site will be built and warranted by AM Solar, including the battery cell balancing electronics and battery monitoring equipment. I will offer this abridged version of the main points of my conversation from today.

Battery specs.:

100 amp/hour basic block: 9-3/4 long, 5-3/4 wide, 10-1/2 high (these are working dimensions)

28 lbs vs. 65 lbs for a Lifeline group 27 100 amp/hour AGM

Larger batteries can be configured in many shapes, allowing them to be placed in a wider assortment of places.

The basic 100 amp/hour battery block is $1300, and this includes the cell balancing electronics and BMS (battery monitor system). Each additional 100 amp/hour block will cost approx. $700, as you only need one BMS per battery, regardless of size.

The BMS is required for the warranty to apply (3 year full replacement/5 year pro-rate replacement) as it protects the batteries from being over drawn and/or overcharged. This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to the long life of these batteries. Special charging requirements are necessary, as these batteries MUST be bulk charged at a constant voltage of 14.2VDC measured at the battery terminals, and float charged at 13.2VDC.

These will not be properly charged by any converter currently available, and must be charged when on-grid by a Magnum inverter/charger or similar fully adjustable power factor corrected charging system. Also, any quality solar charge controller that allows for individual voltage set points and charge duration for bulk and float will work well also. Temperature compensation is not used in these batteries

As it turns out.........the idea of Yttrium as an additive to the LiFePO-4 formula to allow for enhanced use and charging below freezing was a SCAM with no scientific or experimental backing or data. In fact, it was a ruse used by one company to try to evade a distribution contract they had signed with another for exclusive North American distribution rights to their batteries by saying that they were a different formulation. ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS!!!!!! This LiFePO-4 formula is the best presently available.

There is significant danger of ruining these batteries when charging them at temperatures below 32F. Use at this temperature is not recommended but will not degrade the batteries, but charging WILL. The lithium is in a paste form and not in a mat like an AGM and will plate out to the anode and/or cathode (copper and aluminum) when charged below freezing, which will seriously degrade the performance of the batteries.

AM Solar is working on a thermostatically controlled mat that will keep these batteries above freezing at below 32F ambient temps. There is also NO DANGER with placing these batteries inside an RV, as they are incapable of outgassing.

Another caution: They MUST be used in the upright position....similar to a flooded lead acid type battery, as the lithium paste can migrate from covering the plated in any other orientation.

Shipping is still 'under construction' as these are classified as hazardous materials and require special handling. AM Solar is working with UPS national accounts to resolve any issues they may have with these new batteries.

Stay tuned for any late breaking developments!
__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:22 PM   #22
Rivet Master
 
2016 30' Classic
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,245
Images: 1
Lew looking forward to more info. Kind of a conundrum on the temp issue.

See if I have this correct. Below 32 you can use them gently but not charge them. So the idea of a heating mat would bring them up to 32 or so and then they could be charged. Challenge would be if someone is storing outside in the winter with a solar system installed it might be an interesting dance relying on solar to keep the batteries up so that the heater runs. Several bad charging days or snow cover would be the encouragement to shut everything down and manually bring the system back up. Does this sound correct?

Is there any damage to the cells in even colder temps while disconnected and not in use?
__________________
Gary
2015 Classic
2015 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax
ProPride
NVPN
ghaynes755 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:40 PM   #23
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaynes755 View Post
Lew looking forward to more info. Kind of a conundrum on the temp issue.

See if I have this correct. Below 32 you can use them gently but not charge them. So the idea of a heating mat would bring them up to 32 or so and then they could be charged. Challenge would be if someone is storing outside in the winter with a solar system installed it might be an interesting dance relying on solar to keep the batteries up so that the heater runs. Several bad charging days or snow cover would be the encouragement to shut everything down and manually bring the system back up. Does this sound correct?

Is there any damage to the cells in even colder temps while disconnected and not in use?
AFAIK, no problem to leave them disconnected in very low temps, as their internal discharge rate is even lower than AGMs due to almost no internal resistance. I don't see that several months of disconnected storage would be any problem.

I would think that the heat mat scenario would only be viable in an RV while in full use.
__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:54 PM   #24
3 Rivet Member
 
2013 22' FB Sport
College Place , Washington
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 118
Anyone know how the high discharge voltage compares to the Lifelines?
__________________
morgandc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 11:42 PM   #25
4 Rivet Member
 
ronstory's Avatar
 
1975 23' Safari
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 305
Images: 2
Yes, charging in the below 32F can be tricky and gets complex. If a remember correctly the safe charge rate drops by to less than 1C and if you have a large pack, it can take *very long* time to charge.

Not an issue if you have access to AC power, but then you would not need to be using the battery in the first place. Controlling the temp is the best approach and I like the idea of using a thermal mat to maintain a reasonable min temp so you can charge at a typical Li rate.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
ronstory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2015, 06:54 AM   #26
Rivet Master
Commercial Member
 
lewster's Avatar
 
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples, FL , Hood River, OR
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by morgandc View Post
Anyone know how the high discharge voltage compares to the Lifelines?
The BMS system that AM Solar has built operates from 11.0VDC to 16.0VDC. at the lower end, the battery has about 10-15% charge remaining, or a usable depth of discharge of about 85%.
__________________
Lew Farber...ABYC Certified Master Marine Electrician...RVIA Certified Master Tech ...AM Solar Authorized Installation Center...AIRSTREAM Solar & Electrical Specialist...Micro Air 'Easy Start' Sales and Installations
lewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2015, 10:02 AM   #27
Rivet Master
 
2016 30' Classic
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,245
Images: 1
Morgandc if you are asking about maximum discharge rates the only thing I have found was about Thunder Sky LiFeYPO-4 batteries and it simply says max continuous of 3C. In layman terms 1C is the amp hours of the battery. So 1C on a 100aH battery would be 100amp discharge. 3C would be 300amps. That's pretty robust.

The LiPo's I use are rated between 25C and 50C, much different use. Normal flight discharge is usually in the 1.5C range.

For the Lifelines not sure how they would be rated.
__________________

__________________
Gary
2015 Classic
2015 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax
ProPride
NVPN
ghaynes755 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electrical, Solar, Lithium Batteries on 28' International wbrown Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 25 09-13-2014 07:44 PM
Lithium ion battery bearrand Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 9 04-04-2014 07:02 PM
Lithium Battery - 2012 doublebubble Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 23 08-05-2012 10:43 AM
Lithium ion battery sk8r29 Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 18 03-30-2011 02:33 AM
Spray Lithium Grease (Wal-Mart) Old_Town Hitches, Couplers & Balls 3 11-16-2007 01:48 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.