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10-22-2016, 05:16 PM
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#1
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1 Rivet Member
2017 30' International
Dublin
, Ohio
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 14
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Is the 2017 solar pre-wire adequate?
I've read some posts on non 2017 airstreams adding solar and replacing the factory pre-wire because its not really adequate gage to do the job. Is the 2017 pre-wire now good enough to use and get max punch out of it?
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10-22-2016, 05:26 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2006 23' Safari SE
Biloxi
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 8,278
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Depends on your expectations. There are probably as many people here happy with the factory prewire as not.
__________________
MICHAEL
Do you know what a learning experience is? A learning experience is one of those things that says "You know that thing that you just did? Don't do that."
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10-23-2016, 12:31 PM
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#3
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explorer
Currently Looking...
On the Road Full Time
, Utah
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 441
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Depends on how many solar panels you want to run. I suspect it's just fine for the factory panels, but if you're going to go with a lot of solar, you'll need. Ingersoll wiring.
__________________
Currently Airsteamless. Looking for a toy hauler...
2018 Toyota Tundra
Follow our journey living and working from the road full-time: https://themoreweexplore.com
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10-24-2016, 10:37 AM
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#4
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Rivet Master
2015 30' Classic
Pleasanton
, California
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 745
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The 2017 models are still pre-wired with #10AWG. They come with Zamp 80 W panels, so if we assume the total length of the pre-wiring is 75' in a 30' trailer, then the total resistance is (0.001 ohm / ft) * 75 ft = .075 ohms. This results in a worst-case voltage drop of (80 W / 17 V) * .075 ohm = 0.35 V. This represents a voltage loss due to the solar pre-wiring of .35/17 = 2%.
Many folks try to keep the losses due to the pre-wiring to less than 3%. This isn't a hard and fast number, it's just a recommendation since there are other losses in the system and you would like to try and minimize the losses you can control. The problem arises when you start adding additional panels. If you simply add panels in parallel, the current supplied by the solar panels increases but the voltage stays constant, so your losses increase proportionally and you can quickly exceed 3%.
To address this problem, most folks simply rewire their trailers to use heavier gauge wire. I took another route by adding panels in a series/parallel configuration. This allowed me to add a total of 400W of solar, while keeping my voltage losses due to the solar pre-wiring at about 2.5%. This can only be accomplished with an MPPT solar charger.
__________________
Al, K6IV
2015 30' Classic, "Chez Nu"
2014 RAM 2500 w/Cummins Diesel
ProPride Hitch, 400 W Solar
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10-24-2016, 11:39 AM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2007 31' Classic
Gulf Breeze
, Florida
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 500
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I am in the process (right now) of installing solar. Although I will not use the factory pre wire I would like to know the outside location of the junction box, or as an alternate a suggestion of where to have the wire exit the roof of the trailer? I checked the roof and it is not readily apparent. Any ideas for a 2007 International 28 CCD will be appreciated.
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10-24-2016, 12:28 PM
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#6
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Site Team
2017 30' International
Broomfield
, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpetguy
I am in the process (right now) of installing solar. Although I will not use the factory pre wire I would like to know the outside location of the junction box, or as an alternate a suggestion of where to have the wire exit the roof of the trailer? I checked the roof and it is not readily apparent. Any ideas for a 2007 International 28 CCD will be appreciated.
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Prewire in my 2008 international can be found behind the fridge / accessed via the outside fridge vent panel/door.... 2 wires come up from the floor and are part of a larger bundle. Green and Yellow marked "solar" I believe.
From there you can run it up to the roof via the fridge vent up top.
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10-25-2016, 08:03 AM
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#7
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1 Rivet Member
2017 30' International
Dublin
, Ohio
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alano
The 2017 models are still pre-wired with #10AWG. They come with Zamp 80 W panels, so if we assume the total length of the pre-wiring is 75' in a 30' trailer, then the total resistance is (0.001 ohm / ft) * 75 ft = .075 ohms. This results in a worst-case voltage drop of (80 W / 17 V) * .075 ohm = 0.35 V. This represents a voltage loss due to the solar pre-wiring of .35/17 = 2%.
Many folks try to keep the losses due to the pre-wiring to less than 3%. This isn't a hard and fast number, it's just a recommendation since there are other losses in the system and you would like to try and minimize the losses you can control. The problem arises when you start adding additional panels. If you simply add panels in parallel, the current supplied by the solar panels increases but the voltage stays constant, so your losses increase proportionally and you can quickly exceed 3%.
To address this problem, most folks simply rewire their trailers to use heavier gauge wire. I took another route by adding panels in a series/parallel configuration. This allowed me to add a total of 400W of solar, while keeping my voltage losses due to the solar pre-wiring at about 2.5%. This can only be accomplished with an MPPT solar charger.
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My 30' has a prewire port for portable solar plug in, So if I buy say a portable solar unit 160-200w and plug into this port I will be well above 3%
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10-25-2016, 11:57 AM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2015 30' Classic
Pleasanton
, California
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 745
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The short answer is no. The solar plugs on models 2017 connect directly to the battery and allow you to add solar. These connections require panels and a solar charger to convert the panel's output for use in charging the batteries. The losses from these external panels to the built-in charger are negligible. There are some losses from the charger to the solar plug which depends on the wire size and length. I'm not sure what they are, but my guess is that they're less than 3%!
__________________
Al, K6IV
2015 30' Classic, "Chez Nu"
2014 RAM 2500 w/Cummins Diesel
ProPride Hitch, 400 W Solar
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06-29-2019, 06:49 PM
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#9
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The Aluminum Tent 3
2014 23' Flying Cloud
Park City
, Utah
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,157
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Renogy has a wire sizing calculator on their website, where you plug in volts, amps, distance to controller, and acceptable loss of 2% to 5% (You choose which...I used 2%). I want to make sure that I'm using the calculator correctly, however.
Each panel is 18V and 6A (slightly rounded up those numbers from 17.9 and 5.72). I'll be using 4 panels.
If I wire the panels all in Parallel, I plugged in a total voltage of 18V, and 24A.
If wiring Series/Parallel configuration, for the calculator I used 36V and 12A.
Did I get these values right?
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06-29-2019, 07:08 PM
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#10
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Hi
I currently have 4 panels on the roof of my 2017 and still have the factory wiring (since the factory put them up there, they wanted to use "their" wiring). I have seen 400W out of them as recorded in the log on my Victron MPPT controller. I certainly do not see 400W all the time.
If you start worrying about getting the last 1% of efficiency out of your solar, be sure to schedule a mop down of the panels at least once a week .....
Bob
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06-29-2019, 07:15 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2018 27' Globetrotter
Apollo Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcskier
Renogy has a wire sizing calculator on their website, where you plug in volts, amps, distance to controller, and acceptable loss of 2% to 5% (You choose which...I used 2%). I want to make sure that I'm using the calculator correctly, however.
Each panel is 18V and 6A (slightly rounded up those numbers from 17.9 and 5.72). I'll be using 4 panels.
If I wire the panels all in Parallel, I plugged in a total voltage of 18V, and 24A.
If wiring Series/Parallel configuration, for the calculator I used 36V and 12A.
Did I get these values right?
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Yes, roughly correct. Also with series-parallel, you will use less, roughly one-half as much, wire on the rooftop which also saves some voltage. I used a total of 30’ on 400W of series-parallel on the roof of my 25’ with two 15’ runs. My 400W of solar with a Victron 100/30 can produce 30A of charging at the batteries over the solar prewire. I have documented over 170 days of my solar production on the Solar Show and Tell thread. I will be posting another 30 days of usage on July 1 on that thread.
__________________
2021 Northern-Lite 10-2 & F350 DRW PSD, 600W Solar/Victron/600A BattleBorn
146 nights 31,000 miles (first 10 months!)
Sold: 2018 GT27Q, 74 nights 12,777 miles
Sold: 2017 FC25FB, 316 nights 40,150 miles
Sold: 2013 Casita SD17 89 nights 16,200 miles
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06-30-2019, 07:42 AM
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#12
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Hi
Another good thing to consider - solar panels out of the exact same batch can vary by 5% in terms of output. With some brands it can be much more than that. In my case what are supposed to be 80W panels put out measurably more than 80W, even after system losses.
Next up, toss in temperature. If it's cold out, you get an output boost. It can easily be in the 10% range for normal late fall / early spring temperatures. Park out in the desert at high noon with no wind and the same effect works the other way around.
10 AWG wire is rated for 30A under all conditions. Certain types of 10AWG are rated for a bit more than that. The rating rules are very conservative. You will not have a safety issue if you follow them.
Lots of variables !!!!
Bob
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05-09-2023, 12:18 AM
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#13
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New Member
2019 23' Flying Cloud
Mt Shasta
, CA
Join Date: Apr 2023
Posts: 4
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I will be purchasing a pre-owned Airstream Flying Cloud 23CB soon - either a 2016 or 2017-2019. It is important for me to have a solid solar system installed on the trailer after purchase. Am I really better off installing solar on a 2017 or later Flying Cloud 23CB than a 2016 without the factory pre-wiring? Or should this not be an important factor in the purchase?
I understand that starting with 2017, the 23CB's*came pre-wired for solar, but the factory pre-wiring has limitations. Figured I'd revive this thread from the dead before posting a new one!
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05-09-2023, 06:26 AM
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#14
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4 Rivet Member
2001 16' Bambi
2013 23' International
Piedmont Region
, North Carolina
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 408
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I have a 2013 23D/CB, original owner, it has solar prewire. Don’t know exact year it started but it was definitely before 2017. Also, 2001 16’ Bambi that has it so the prewire has been out there for awhile. Both are 10 gauge.
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'01 16' Bambi --- Swee' Pea
'13 23D International --- Trixy
'18 F150 Lariat maxtow --- Liz
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05-09-2023, 07:14 AM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2013 27' FB International
El Dorado Hills
, California
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,023
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The Airstream prewire 10 gauge is generally adequate for small solar systems, less than 200 watts when running at 12 volts. Six gauge wire is better for larger mid sized systems.
An alternative is to wire the panels in a 24 volt configuration. Higher voltages don't require as big a wire as low voltages for the same power. Most solar controllers can reduce the 24 volt current back to 12 colts.
There's lots of information on the internet in regards to solar.
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11-03-2023, 10:39 PM
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#16
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1 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Hillsboro
, Oregon
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 6
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Exactly. 3% is not much.
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11-04-2023, 12:34 AM
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#17
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' International
Redmond
, Washington
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lem
I've read some posts on non 2017 airstreams adding solar and replacing the factory pre-wire because its not really adequate gage to do the job. Is the 2017 pre-wire now good enough to use and get max punch out of it?
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I had looked around inside of my trailer for the termination of the Pre-Wire leads at the places others had mentioned and still hadn't found them. So, I sent a request to AS and they confirmed that my 2019 International has the 8 gauge wire and that it terminates under the bead near the batteries. They also sent the entire schematics of the trailer and it also verifies 8 gauge.
You might just reach out to them and provide your VIN number and they can tell you what/where it is.
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11-05-2023, 07:53 AM
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#18
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oui-Ski
I had looked around inside of my trailer for the termination of the Pre-Wire leads at the places others had mentioned and still hadn't found them. So, I sent a request to AS and they confirmed that my 2019 International has the 8 gauge wire and that it terminates under the bead near the batteries. They also sent the entire schematics of the trailer and it also verifies 8 gauge.
You might just reach out to them and provide your VIN number and they can tell you what/where it is.
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Hi
Based on talking to various dealer techs: The location of the "pre wire" can vary trailer to trailer. They would get in 5 trailers from the factory and despite being the same model, same month, the cables are in different locations.....
Bob
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11-05-2023, 10:52 PM
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#19
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' International
Redmond
, Washington
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
Based on talking to various dealer techs: The location of the "pre wire" can vary trailer to trailer. They would get in 5 trailers from the factory and despite being the same model, same month, the cables are in different locations.....
Bob
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I really suspect that even though they told me it terminated under the bed. I had looked all over the trailer, except under the bed and had not found anything yet, so I sent the note requesting information. I am hoping that it is indeed there.
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11-06-2023, 04:50 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
Based on talking to various dealer techs: The location of the "pre wire" can vary trailer to trailer. They would get in 5 trailers from the factory and despite being the same model, same month, the cables are in different locations.....
Bob
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I would agree with this. Although not relevant to this model, back in the day I couldn't find the end of my solar prewires at the refrigerator compartment. Contacted Jackson Center and was told it was in the outside rear refrigerator compartment, tied way up high to the main 12v harness running from the roof down through the fridge compartment floor, where it splits off on top of the wheel well housing.
For years I occasionally would go on hunt (I had since run a 6ga duplex for solar).
About 10 years into my ownership, I accidently discovered them inside the flexible conduit which housed the refrigerator 12v power wires. As far as I know, my trailer is the only one of anyone posting here who found them in that location.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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