15,000 BTU A/C, EasyStart, What Generator?

[thiel]

Originally Posted by upnorththree

I've read many of your posts on various subjects. What's the belief on Briggs and Stratton or Generac running this soft-starter?

The you tube and micro air videos review ONLY the Honda.

If many here on airforums believe the Yamaha will be successful (without it being tested), why would the Briggs and Stratton or Generac not do the job as well?

While it can be said one should choose to run with the proven, Briggs and Stratton is no slouch when it comes to engines. They were in the engine business when Honda was still in diapers and I am giving heavy consideration to B&S.

Not just price but size and weight as well. And B&S and Generac are well within the same db range ratings as Honda and Yamaha.

The Honda name is always quality but, Honda is in the neighborhood of $1099 for a 2k while a B&S 2k can be had for less than $600. That PAYS for the soft starter OR, almost two B&S'.

Thanks.

I believe the Honda and Yamaha have been tested by Matteo and passed, but the Champion 2000w generator did NOT. I think that's reason enough to try/test/hedge on on the assumption that the Briggs and Stratton unit would work.

Also, see my post immediately previous to this one... and see Post #30 in this thread from Matteo. He reports good results with Westinghouse....

[Troutboy]

Thiel, I believe that champion wasn't rated the same for steady state as the Honda, so it was a 2000w, but it's steady state ran lower. My point, maybe not well stated, was that the generator has to have the proper rating for peak power and steady state. Not all of the "2000W" are rated the same..... or have the same specs..

[upnorththree]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

I'm part of the lovefest. Not because I enjoy spending twice as much, but I had experience with the red ones at a former job and they were the quietist and almost never required service. Now maybe had I used Brand C, I would have loved them just as much, but I took a sure thing. I bought my red 3000 from a guy who was switching to 2 red 2000's and a parallel kit. So, there's plenty of opinions.
I'm skeptical of brands like Westinghouse. In many cases, the name is sold to a Chinese company who sells a product and many think it's "Made in the USA". Maybe it works just as well. Honda makes some of their motors in China, under strict guidelines. China CAN make great products, look at I-phones. The question is always "is it made in China to get the cheapest product possible?"
I learned long ago that buying quality once is better than buying twice.
My first MH had a Generac generator. Worked fine.
I thought long and hard about buying Brand C with dual fuel. I stuck with Brand H.

To each his own of blowing front money.

You've got a lot of stuff here but, I'll try to stay on topic.

You made no mention to Briggs & Stratton being manufactured in Wisconsin before Honda was in diapers. Generac too is USA. Honda? What state are they manufactured? Yamaha? I don't know what your brand C means.

Here's the real thing. Now that I'm older and wiser, having the most expensive means very little to me. VALUE is more important.

If I can get a FINE American made quality Briggs at less than half the price ($533 vs. $1099), I can spend the remaining $500+ on something else or put that cold cash into my pocket. OR, if it explodes, I don't worry about service warranty or down-time. I'll buy a new one and STILL have money left over.

I'm just looking for a straight answer. If Yamaha is a 'known' yes without being tested, does anyone know if a Briggs and Stratton will get the job done as well?

[upnorththree]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

Correct. Even better, we have also had dozens of confirmed reports from customers that they have met with success using EasyStarts in their 13.5k & 15k rooftops powered by the Yamaha and Westinghouse 2000W models.

The only 2000W generator that we know of where a 13.5k or 15k rooftop cannot be started - even with an EasyStart - is the Champion model 73536i. It would only work with a 9k A/C system. This topic came up in another thread at this link. We tried our hardest for this customer (who is an Airstream owner), and even purchased one of these generators for testing in our factory. Post #19 in the other thread has the full story.

Do you know if there is any hard data on the Briggs and Stratton 2k starting a 13.5 with the soft-starter device?
Thanks.

[Troutboy]

Interesting, in searching the champion, I found an old page at Costco, and there was a warning and disclaimer that the 2000W generator will not run AC units...... I guess champion is off the list....

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by upnorththree

Do you know if there is any hard data on the Briggs and Stratton 2k starting a 13.5 with the soft-starter device?
Thanks.

Upnorththree - I know this is frustrating for you. Troutboy, thiel, and Mollysdad did their best to offer to you what is known (thanks guys). At present, we at Micro-Air have no confirmed cases of anyone using the Brigg & Stratton P2000 model inverter generator with EasyStart. The only confirmed cases are with the respective 2000W models from Honda, Yamaha, and Westinghouse.

Champion 73536i
That being said, like you, we were extremely disappointed to find out that the very economical Champion 2000W model could not do the job. As you can see in the scope shots in my post in the other thread, the generator's output literally "fell apart at the seams" during attempted startups of our 15k Dometic Penguin II with EasyStart. Our best engineering assessment tells us that it was the inverter itself and/or the internal DC capacitance bank that did not have the same capability as the other 2000W models that we know work.

Generator Specifications - Honda vs. Others
How a generator manufacturer specifies their generator is a bit of a numbers game, partly geared to entice sales, and partly geared to protect the manufacturer from being accused of making false claims. Honda took a very conservative approach. They specify a "rated" output of only 1600W, and a "maximum" output of 2000W. Their "maximum" can be maintained without the overload LED even blinking. Honda will never admit to this, nor will they ever spec it, but we have measured very brief surge capacities of that generator upwards to 30A (almost 2x). Even our 18kBTU marine A/C unit with learned starting currents in the low 20s started and ran fine on the Honda.

When we examined the specs of the Champion 2000W literature, we saw that they had cited similar numbers as the Honda, but not exactly. On page 12 of their user manual, we found the pivotal paragraph.

The overload indicator light will turn on when the load exceeds 1750W. If the load exceeds 2000W, the light will blink and cut power to the receptacles. To recover the power, you must shut off the engine, wait 5 seconds, and restart the generator.

After reading this, we then knew why it could not start our 15k Penguin II, with even with the reduced startup current provided by EasyStart.

B&S P2000
I just downloaded the Briggs & Stratton P2000 manual from their website. Reading and searching through it, they spec it differently than Honda. They state that their "rated" wattage is 1300W, and their "starting" wattage is 2000W. Notice the difference in how they labeled the 2000W rating as compared with how Honda labeled it. They also don't specify the wattage level at which the overload fault LED gets lit. Combining this with what they detailed on page 13 about maximum loads and the starting surges thereof, I would estimate that the P2000 will likely not be able to start either a 13.5kBTU or 15kBTU Penguin II rooftop with EasyStart. It certainly won't be able to keep the 15k running since that unit draws about 14.5A steady-state.

B&S P2200
Browsing the B&S website further, I found the P2200 model that didn't appear to cost much more than the P2000 after doing a quick Google Shopping search. That search also revealed that the P2000 model is reportedly discontinued! I searched the B&S site and then the internet, but I could not find the manual for the P2200. The P2200 has a "rated" wattage of 1700W and a "starting" wattage of 2200W. Given this, and what was documented in the P2000 manual, I feel more confident that the P2200 will start a 13.5k or 15k air conditioners with EasyStart; however, I have some doubts about it being able to keep it running. I say this because 1700W appears to be the maximum they want you to subject the generator to, steady-state. That's only 14.2A @120VAC. We know that the 13.5k Dometic Penguin II draws about 13A when running, and the 15k Penguin II draws about 14.5A. This means there is a good chance the P2200 will still not be able to sustain the 15k, even if it is somehow was able to start it (with EasyStart). Even with the 13.5k, having only about 1.2A of steady-state operation headroom doesn't leave much for any auxiliary loads in your trailer.

Summary
(Please allow me to make a disclaimer here that the following is my best engineering estimate after doing the B&S documentation/spec analysis and combining that with our other documented experience with the other brand generators.) In summary, the B&S P2200 will likely be able to start and run a 13.5k Dometic Penguin II with EasyStart, but it may not be able to start and likely won't be able to keep running a 15k Dometic Penguin II with EasyStart.

I hope this helps you. You can now evaluate everyone's input and maybe research some other sources, and that should enable you to ultimately make a generator choice. Remember to factor in the size of your A/C and the other auxiliary loads you intend to support.

[gandttimes]

Originally Posted by upnorththree

Thanks for the input, George. I'm looking for a reason not to buy B&S 2k to run this soft-starter.

Do you use your Kipor to run an A/C? I have a 13.5 Dometic on our AS and I want to travel as light as possible.

Not yet. I am going to order the "soft start " and try it out but it has worked great for all my aplications so far.

[tjdonahoe]

I had a Coleman, 4000, with a 5 hp Briggs, never again, was loud, heavy, it went away....Honda. Red...

[upnorththree]

Originally Posted by Troutboy

Many different generator brands. Honda and Yamaha considered gold standard and pricey.

To each his own. What I have seen being on these forums for 7 months is most AS owners have decent disposable income and go for proven well known brands. Or they are experienced and have learned you get what you pay for.

I am not sure I even need a generator at this point. What is important to me is weight, footprint/size, and sound.

Everyone has their own opinions and needs. There are plenty out there, find the one that matches what your key priorities are.

Amen to that. Sometimes a bit too much arrogance in the wind.

We are brand new to camping and too many 'ole' timers take that for granted with their jargon and past experiences.

I'm looking for a generator. A small generator. Aside from a lifetime of tried and true history the B&S gets very little cred on this site. Height is most important and the Briggs and Stratton best fits the footprint I can consider. The less-than-half the cost of a Honda 2k is only icing on the cake.

I am still looking for hard proof from anyone who knows if B&S can deliver using the soft starter on my 13.5k Dometic.

Thanks.

[ATownTX]

Per the specs, the Briggs & Stratton P2200 will run a 13.5K BTU AC with the Easy Start installed. No reason to believe it won't, but it has not been tested by MicroAir.

[upnorththree]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

Upnorththree - I know this is frustrating for you. Troutboy, thiel, and Mollysdad did their best to offer to you what is known (thanks guys). At present, we at Micro-Air have no confirmed cases of anyone using the Brigg & Stratton P2000 model inverter generator with EasyStart. The only confirmed cases are with the respective 2000W models from Honda, Yamaha, and Westinghouse.

Champion 73536i
That being said, like you, we were extremely disappointed to find out that the very economical Champion 2000W model could not do the job. As you can see in the scope shots in my post in the other thread, the generator's output literally "fell apart at the seams" during attempted startups of our 15k Dometic Penguin II with EasyStart. Our best engineering assessment tells us that it was the inverter itself and/or the internal DC capacitance bank that did not have the same capability as the other 2000W models that we know work.

Generator Specifications - Honda vs. Others
How a generator manufacturer specifies their generator is a bit of a numbers game, partly geared to entice sales, and partly geared to protect the manufacturer from being accused of making false claims. Honda took a very conservative approach. They specify a "rated" output of only 1600W, and a "maximum" output of 2000W. Their "maximum" can be maintained without the overload LED even blinking. Honda will never admit to this, nor will they ever spec it, but we have measured very brief surge capacities of that generator upwards to 30A (almost 2x). Even our 18kBTU marine A/C unit with learned starting currents in the low 20s started and ran fine on the Honda.

When we examined the specs of the Champion 2000W literature, we saw that they had cited similar numbers as the Honda, but not exactly. On page 12 of their user manual, we found the pivotal paragraph.

The overload indicator light will turn on when the load exceeds 1750W. If the load exceeds 2000W, the light will blink and cut power to the receptacles. To recover the power, you must shut off the engine, wait 5 seconds, and restart the generator.

After reading this, we then knew why it could not start our 15k Penguin II, with even with the reduced startup current provided by EasyStart.

B&S P2000
I just downloaded the Briggs & Stratton P2000 manual from their website. Reading and searching through it, they spec it differently than Honda. They state that their "rated" wattage is 1300W, and their "starting" wattage is 2000W. Notice the difference in how they labeled the 2000W rating as compared with how Honda labeled it. They also don't specify the wattage level at which the overload fault LED gets lit. Combining this with what they detailed on page 13 about maximum loads and the starting surges thereof, I would estimate that the P2000 will likely not be able to start either a 13.5kBTU or 15kBTU Penguin II rooftop with EasyStart. It certainly won't be able to keep the 15k running since that unit draws about 14.5A steady-state.

B&S P2200
Browsing the B&S website further, I found the P2200 model that didn't appear to cost much more than the P2000 after doing a quick Google Shopping search. That search also revealed that the P2000 model is reportedly discontinued! I searched the B&S site and then the internet, but I could not find the manual for the P2200. The P2200 has a "rated" wattage of 1700W and a "starting" wattage of 2200W. Given this, and what was documented in the P2000 manual, I feel more confident that the P2200 will start a 13.5k or 15k air conditioners with EasyStart; however, I have some doubts about it being able to keep it running. I say this because 1700W appears to be the maximum they want you to subject the generator to, steady-state. That's only 14.2A @120VAC. We know that the 13.5k Dometic Penguin II draws about 13A when running, and the 15k Penguin II draws about 14.5A. This means there is a good chance the P2200 will still not be able to sustain the 15k, even if it is somehow was able to start it (with EasyStart). Even with the 13.5k, having only about 1.2A of steady-state operation headroom doesn't leave much for any auxiliary loads in your trailer.

Summary
(Please allow me to make a disclaimer here that the following is my best engineering estimate after doing the B&S documentation/spec analysis and combining that with our other documented experience with the other brand generators.) In summary, the B&S P2200 will likely be able to start and run a 13.5k Dometic Penguin II with EasyStart, but it may not be able to start and likely won't be able to keep running a 15k Dometic Penguin II with EasyStart.

I hope this helps you. You can now evaluate everyone's input and maybe research some other sources, and that should enable you to ultimately make a generator choice. Remember to factor in the size of your A/C and the other auxiliary loads you intend to support.

Thanks very much Matteo for the hard data and your expertise.

I do evaluate and appreciate everyone's input and contribution but, nearly everyone's input is focused around the same two manufacturers. This is very helpful if you are only interested in those two products.

While visiting my local Honda dealer, I discovered another brand, Echo Bear Cat, out of South Dakota. The brand is well recognized by hundreds of local equipment houses which sell them as an alternative to Honda.

Based on your information here and reading online manuals, one can be led to believe these manufactures numbers may not be trustworthy.

The Champion start and run wattage is equal to or greater than the Honda 2000 yet, your report shows it failed with the easy start. How does one know what manufacturers numbers to trust?

I am a newby with one trip under his belt and am still wondering what the difference is between a Penguin I and Penguin II. Is it size related or generation related, or what?

Again, I would like to thank you for your detailed descriptions here and your dedication.

Richard

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by upnorththree

Thanks very much Matteo for the hard data and your expertise.

I do evaluate and appreciate everyone's input and contribution but, nearly everyone's input is focused around the same two manufacturers. This is very helpful if you are only interested in those two products.

While visiting my local Honda dealer, I discovered another brand, Echo Bear Cat, out of South Dakota. The brand is well recognized by hundreds of local equipment houses which sell them as an alternative to Honda.

Based on your information here and reading online manuals, one can be led to believe these manufactures numbers may not be trustworthy.

The Champion start and run wattage is equal to or greater than the Honda 2000 yet, your report shows it failed with the easy start. How does one know what manufacturers numbers to trust?

I am a newby with one trip under his belt and am still wondering what the difference is between a Penguin I and Penguin II. Is it size related or generation related, or what?

Again, I would like to thank you for your detailed descriptions here and your dedication.

Richard

Richard - I'm very glad to help you and everyone else here. Yes, there are a lot of choices, and we've come to learn there may be some "funny numbers" out there when it comes to how generator manufacturer's spec their equipment. Honda raised the bar pretty high for what a 2000W generator can do. A lot of other manufacturers are still trying to play catch up.

The Penguin was the original low-profile model from Dometic. I now refer to it as the "Penguin I" just to distinguish it, although no one at Dometic calls it that. The Penguin II is in fact the second generation of the same product. The entire thing was redesigned. They went from using a not-so-efficient, horizontal-mounted compressor back to a more standard and very efficient, vertical compressor. They also redesigned the outside cover and introduced using that black molded construction Styrofoam to create a better sealed and better insulated evaporator air box. They also introduced the CCC II controls with this model as well. While I was a Dometic marine employee for about 10 years up to 2012, the Dometic rooftops didn't have a very good reputation. They were poor performers and considered almost "throwaway" in terms of their reliability and quality. I must say that the Penguin II has changed all of that. We at Micro-Air are quite impressed. The Penguin II we now own is a very nice A/C unit.

Best of luck with your generator search. Please share any findings if you encounter a more economical alternative to the Honda that delivers equal performance.

[GettinAway]

Matteo, how do I tell if I have the Penguin 1, or 2? Is there a year when it would have switched over? Wondering what's in my 2011?
Thanks

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by GettinAway

Matteo, how do I tell if I have the Penguin 1, or 2? Is there a year when it would have switched over? Wondering what's in my 2011?
Thanks

I believe the switchover year was 2012-13, or thereabouts. Certainly, the model numbers can distinguish the two, but given the variations, that can be complicated. The shroud styles are the best indicator. Please see the photos below {Penguin (I) first on left, Penguin II second on right}.

[lsbrodsky]

My 2012 has the II.

Larry

[rodsterinfl]

Interesting on the Penguin I versus Penguin II. I heard the opposite. On the Wanderlodge forum, there is a devoted thread to the subject and people posted that their Penguin II replacements were way noisier than the Penguin I and used a different refrigerant. "The harmonic noise is unbelievable". My unit has black styrofoam insert but is a Penguin I. I have heard complaints on noise with the Penguin II and did not fully understand until I was at a rally and someone came over to hear my ac run and shared how much quieter it was. Then I went and heard theirs. Big difference. I was told via another forum that Dometic had bushings in the Penguin I that were not in the Penguin II and that they offered them as a fix. Now it sounds like the compressor is mounted differently, let alone a different compressor and coolant.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

Richard - I'm very glad to help you and everyone else here. Yes, there are a lot of choices, and we've come to learn there may be some "funny numbers" out there when it comes to how generator manufacturer's spec their equipment. Honda raised the bar pretty high for what a 2000W generator can do. A lot of other manufacturers are still trying to play catch up.

The Penguin was the original low-profile model from Dometic. I now refer to it as the "Penguin I" just to distinguish it, although no one at Dometic calls it that. The Penguin II is in fact the second generation of the same product. The entire thing was redesigned. They went from using a not-so-efficient, horizontal-mounted compressor back to a more standard and very efficient, vertical compressor. They also redesigned the outside cover and introduced using that black molded construction Styrofoam to create a better sealed and better insulated evaporator air box. They also introduced the CCC II controls with this model as well. While I was a Dometic marine employee for about 10 years up to 2012, the Dometic rooftops didn't have a very good reputation. They were poor performers and considered almost "throwaway" in terms of their reliability and quality. I must say that the Penguin II has changed all of that. We at Micro-Air are quite impressed. The Penguin II we now own is a very nice A/C unit.

Best of luck with your generator search. Please share any findings if you encounter a more economical alternative to the Honda that delivers equal performance.

Matteo et al,

Interesting take from 'inside' of Dometic. I will say that in the RV service world.....ALL of the Dometic units were and are considered throw-aways (and especially the Penguin II)!

Having replaced dozens under warranty which ranged from a matter of days to 2 years, I can unequivocally state that their quality has definitely been downgraded from their older units, as has the unit longevity.

When I was in LaGrange, IN in 2006 at the factory for Dometic's 6 day in-house service training course, they seemed rather proud of their products. As the years (and model changes) progressed....not so much. Several of the supervisors that I got to know while at Dometic always provided me with 'insider' answers too some of my more esoteric questions.

I remember that all of their units were in fact made in China when I started in the RV business in 2000. Later, around 2005-2006 IIRC, this production was moved to a factory in Mexico, which was actually making a pretty decent product judging from the number of repairs/replacements that I was doing at the time.

That factory had a major fire and production was then moved to a factory in the US for a while. Unfortunately, this is when the quality really started to suffer and I was replacing many, many units with refrigerant leaks......more than ever before....a sign of poor assembly techniques.

It was a short time after these problems came to Dometic's attention that the newer design units came out and production was again returned to China. I'm still not impressed with the quality of the series 2 Penguins or Brisk Airs........even with the newer components and design changes.

There are now several new sources for roof A/C units along with Dometic and the US-made RVP-Coleman models, which is a division of Air Excel Corp. These are quality units, but also have their 'issues' as well.

The newer units are both made in China: Advent made by a Chinese company and Atwood, which I understand is now owned by Dometic. Having seen both I would not recommend either unit.

The time is definitely ripe for a new, split-style REPAIRABLE A/C unit that would free roof space and provide better, quieter cooling/heating for Airstream trailers. A direct DC compressor model would definitely be a plus also....like that on a marine fridge. The problem is the fierce price competition in that market segment, which fully explains why quality has suffered in this segment.

Sorry for the ramblings.......just though a bit of background and my experiences would be of some interest.

[Troutboy]

Lew, what AC unit would you recommend if replacing a penguin II?

[Mollysdad]

I was always convinced that an enterprising AC tech could make a living following the Nascar circuit in his service truck. With 100 car haulers, 30 souvenir trailers, and 20 TV trucks, I don't think there's an event without demand for a AC unit being serviced. They all use the front mounted units (on semi trailers).
I just think AC units are not suited to bounce down the road every day.

[Bill M.]

To the original question: I would just keep the Yamaha 3000. Yes, it is bigger than you need but why make a change unless you are really tight on space. You must already be carrying it in a pickup. If not, then maybe change.

I do plan to run my AC on a Honda 2000, but we will only run it a dozen days a year or so.