13.5k Penguin, Easystart, Honda eu2000 Troubleshooting Please

[dmac]

Originally Posted by FC7039

Does a generator lose power in altitude?

Yes, about 3% per 1000’ of altitude gain.

It sounds like you may need to clean that carb a bit more.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by FC7039

Some good news. But not to get my hopes too high. It was cooler with clouds most of the day. I regapped the spark plug and I cleaned the carb jets. One jet you may miss is in the set screw that holds the main jet. After that the AC did start and stay running. It would barely run on eco mode pulsating. But on normal ran ok. Again not near as hot today. I am heading to the mountains. Does a generator lose power in altitude? I assume not near as hot here near Dallas. I will test more in the coming days in high heat.

Are you talking about #12? The brass jet with multiple side orifices that's at the core of the carb? Yes, I made sure to clean that one and thought I did a rather thorough job. The other jet I really paid attention to was #32. Along with the micro orifices along the side of the throttle body path. I only really took apart the bottom bowl assembly to clean however...I didn't take apart the upper motor part.

My plugs are practically new and I know I checked the gap prior to installing them. Thanks for the tips as obviously there's something still going on with my two units.

They do run and start on first pull. With a great steady rhythm in both normal and eco modes. The only out of norm running is at higher loads where the engine does sound strained. And indeed this is backed up by the voltage drop. Could still be fueling or air.

[FC7039]

Originally Posted by pteck

Attachment 316501

Are you talking about #12? The brass jet with multiple side orifices that's at the core of the carb? Yes, I made sure to clean that one and thought I did a rather thorough job. The other jet I really paid attention to was #32. Along with the micro orifices along the side of the throttle body path. I only really took apart the bottom bowl assembly to clean however...I didn't take apart the upper motor part.

My plugs are practically new and I know I checked the gap prior to installing them. Thanks for the tips as obviously there's something still going on with my two units.

They do run and start on first pull. With a great steady rhythm in both normal and eco modes. The only out of norm running is at higher loads where the engine does sound strained. And indeed this is backed up by the voltage drop. Could still be fueling or air.

#31 has a “jet” “port” hole as well as #12. I have yet to do it but plan to take the muffler off in case it is impeding exhaust. My generators have been to the coast so maybe some rust. Just a guess.

[FC7039]

Originally Posted by dmac

Yes, about 3% per 1000’ of altitude gain.



It sounds like you may need to clean that carb a bit more.

You say clean the carb but I am really just going through the motions as I see nothing dirty or gummed up etc. I am not a small engine expert. I do not feel I need to be one for this all to work. My generators work fine for all other purposes.

[GCinSC2]

Originally Posted by FC7039

You say clean the carb but I am really just going through the motions as I see nothing dirty or gummed up etc. I am not a small engine expert. I do not feel I need to be one for this all to work. My generators work fine for all other purposes.

When I’ve worked on small engine carbs I spend some real time following and flowing the air passages. Small straws low psi air and follow. Air going in usually comes out somewhere.

[gdanderson]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

When I’ve worked on small engine carbs I spend some real time following and flowing the air passages. Small straws low psi air and follow. Air going in usually comes out somewhere.

Well.....have been emailing Matteo back and forth all day today. Bought a amp meter and had a volt meter. Built a 2-ft. 10 gauge pig tail so i can use the clamp on amp meter. Start generator with everything hooked up. Get 14.8 amps at 118 volts...not bad. At 10 min. Have 16.5 amps and the votls jump back forth between 116 and the lowest i saw was 104 volts. When i say jump around i mean 1/2 second between 116 and 104 volts then back to 118/111 then 115/108 you get what i mean. Then the compressor drops out, fan remains running.

Dismantled carb and cleaned, new plug gaped correctly, temporarily removed the air cleaner filter, cleaned spark arrester. Spark arrester did not need cleaning. Ran and had the exact same run scenario. Will go back after the carb.

Can't say enough good things about Matteo. He is very very helpful.

AC runs all day long on house current.

No other loads on system except AC!

This is starting to make me mad!

Photo show gagues on house current.

Second photo shows gauges at high voltage bounce.

Greg Anderson
Wisconsin

[mykytiukr]

It could very well be that the fuel system has some varnish deposits that have accumulated, especially since it has been stored for some time. Let me bring up the subject of Avgas!!! It is widely known in light aircraft circles that when they run auto fuel in their small planes (A good percentage of them are approved for it. Called an “Auto Fuel STC”) that it can cause a varnish build-up amongst a few other issues. But since the price of auto fuel is about half or less and the planes run just fine on it, it is widely used with precautions. Like every 2nd or 3rd fill-up you burn a tank full of avgas. This will remove any small varnish deposits from the system. And they do not let the aircraft sit for long periods with auto fuel in the tanks. It is flown every couple of days or at least once a week. If it is going to be parked for say the winter, it is run low or drained then filled with 100LL avgas, flown for awhile then parked. There are a lot of discussions on this very subject on the light aircraft forums. Motor On!!!

[CDONA]

There have been issues on AC settings of the fan speed. The programming on how the AC holds temp and works depends on the fan mode, auto, hi, low.
I wouldn't run it on anything but the fan on auto, then see what it will do.
I got behind on my test running (carb/gas) of my 2K Yamaha, and it surged while under load. I took it in, told them what was wrong, they suggested a fuel service, cleaning the carb. That fixed it, I got it to run my 15K AC, @ 1200' so it works.
I suggest that along with running out the float bowl, drain what is left below the jets too.

[dmac]

Some comments have mentioned that their A/C worked with a Honda EU2000i when it was cool, but not on a hot day. Why would this happen? The A/C compressor cycles on/off, with more on time on a hot day... but isn’t the amp draw consistent? What would make it use more amps? On a hot day the density altitude is higher so the generator receives less air and runs a little richer, is that the problem? If the primary use of the gen is for A/C on hot days perhaps we should be jetting for density altitude!

For example, I’m going to Oshkosh next week for the big air show. Assuming a field elevation of about 1000’, a hot day at 100 F, and 70 F dew point the density altitude will be about 4,000’.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by dmac

Some comments have mentioned that their A/C worked with a Honda EU2000i when it was cool, but not on a hot day. Why would this happen? The A/C compressor cycles on/off, with more on time on a hot day... but isn’t the amp draw consistent? What would make it use more amps? On a hot day the density altitude is higher so the generator receives less air and runs a little richer, is that the problem? If the primary use of the gen is for A/C on hot days perhaps we should be jetting for density altitude!

DMAC - your point about the density altitude is a valid one. (You must be an auto racer since tracks always publish this number.) But, regarding your HVAC question, compressors draw more amperage on hot days because the condenser is operating at a higher temperature, so the discharge refrigerant pressure is also higher. Higher discharge pressure means the compressor has to work harder to overcome it and to maintain the same RPM since it is an induction motor, thus the reason it draws more amps. This difference can be quite significant. A typical 15kBTU rooftop might draw as low as 12A in cool weather and as much as 16A in extremely hot weather.

[dmac]

Not a race car driver, I am a pilot!

So higher amp draw plus higher density altitude...

I need to get an ammeter!

[GettinAway]

When I did the ES upgrade, my Honda 2000 was doing exactly what’s been described here. The compressor would not kick in, and the 2000 would sputter, and sometimes quit. I tried working and cleaning the carb. No help. I finally gave up, and took the 2000 into a small engine repair shop. For about what I could have bought a new carb for, they rebuilt it. It now works perfectly. The AC starts and runs very well with the 2000. I have the 13,500 unit. I also have not tried it though when it’s really hot. The one time I ran it, for about a hour, it was only in the mid 80s. I need to run it again in the mid 90s.
I really need to fine ethanol free gas. I downloaded the app hopefully some is near by. I have three mowers, chain saws, blowers, motorcycles, and a Honda Big Red side by side. None have had any trouble with the gas I’ve had in them. I even have a old construction type (loud) generator at home for power outages. It runs fine every six months when I get it out and run it for a while. The Honda 2000s must be particularly sensitive. Makes me want to consider propane.

[4seasons]

I read this post last night because I have the same setup minus the soft start (I assume). I moved in full time to my 2001 Bambi 19 three months ago and bought a Honda EU2000i hoping I could use my AC here in central Texas. All was well until today I noticed the genny surging when it shut down with an overload indication. Prior to this the AC would actually make it too cold even on low. Now the AC will only run after being off for at least a half hour and will soon overload the generator.

I hope it’s not out of line to jump in on this thread I am not intending to highjack just hoping for some guidance. Dreading the lack of AC!

A couple things that may be hints to where the problem might be:
1. Because it would get to cold I would turn the temp setting warmer which would cycle it on and off. Over the last several weeks when it would shut down it became a louder and more jolting event. You could feel it in the floor even.

2. When the Honda would run out of gas I would plug it in to an extention cord to house power and often forget to turn the AC off before doing so. The AC would always continue to run. I did that today and it blew a circuit breaker in the house instantly.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by 4seasons

I read this post last night because I have the same setup minus the soft start (I assume). I moved in full time to my 2001 Bambi 19 three months ago and bought a Honda EU2000i hoping I could use my AC here in central Texas. All was well until today I noticed the genny surging when it shut down with an overload indication. Prior to this the AC would actually make it too cold even on low. Now the AC will only run after being off for at least a half hour and will soon overload the generator.

I hope it’s not out of line to jump in on this thread I am not intending to highjack just hoping for some guidance. Dreading the lack of AC!

A couple things that may be hints to where the problem might be:
1. Because it would get to cold I would turn the temp setting warmer which would cycle it on and off. Over the last several weeks when it would shut down it became a louder and more jolting event. You could feel it in the floor even.

2. When the Honda would run out of gas I would plug it in to an extention cord to house power and often forget to turn the AC off before doing so. The AC would always continue to run. I did that today and it blew a circuit breaker in the house instantly.

Hello 4seasons. Reading your problem description a few times, it sounds to me like your A/C's thermostat is the cause because it is doing the following:

1. not shutting off at the setpoint temperature (unless you adjust it) thus making it too cold
2. short cycling the compressor (i.e. restarting it too soon), thus causing the generator to overload on some starts and not on others after a 30-minute off time
3. keeping compressor engaged across power cycles (generator-to-utility switchover tripping a circuit breaker as you described)

Important question: Does your A/C use a 2-knob manual control in the ceiling plenum, or is it a digital control? If it does, then that can explain it. Mechanical thermostats with the classic temperature bulb on the end of a capillary tube are notorious for the above sort of behavior after many years of use. It would need to be replaced, if that is what your system uses.

[GMFL]

Originally Posted by FC7039

I have a Penguin II HE. Commonly referred to as a 15k. As pointed out not a 15k. See label. 13.4. Mine is several years old
Attachment 316498

Please not the cooling watts of both the Penquin II Hi-Cap unit and the Brisk Air 15K unit air the same. Not sure why Dometic does not call the Penquin II a 15K but it has the same specs.

[4seasons]

Thanks Micro-Air.
Yes it is a 2 knob manual control model.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by 4seasons

Thanks Micro-Air.
Yes it is a 2 knob manual control model.

I'd consider changing the thermostat then. No guarantees, but the symptoms fit. I found one online at this link.

Originally Posted by GMFL

Please not the cooling watts of both the Penquin II Hi-Cap unit and the Brisk Air 15K unit air the same. Not sure why Dometic does not call the Penquin II a 15K but it has the same specs.

Nice find, GMFL. 4392W of cooling capacity is in fact 15.0kBTU. And for those who are wondering, the reason why the actual electricity power consumption of 1762W can produce 4392W of cooling power is because of the thermodynamic principle called the "Coefficient of Performance" or "COP". Typically, most A/Cs have a COP of 2.5-3.0, depending on their designs and the environmental conditions. Thus the reason why heat pumps can produce heat at a much higher efficiency than that of electric heaters (COP=1).

More to your question, having previously worked in the engineering team at the Dometic marine HVAC factory here in Florida for 10 years, I know the "games" that get played with "specmanship", in order to distinguish oneself from one's competitors. Marine units had various standards by which we could rate their capacities, both ARI (American Refrigeration Institute) and the ABYC (American Boating & Yachting Council). Dometic RV chose the more international ISO standards apparently. Not sure why then they then chose to stamp "Hi-cap" intead of "15,000 BTUs" on the Dometic Penguin II dataplate labels, when they freely do it on their 15kBTU Brisk II models. The world may never know...

[FC7039]

The more I read the more I realize I don’t know much. The RLA is not the BTU but Rated Load Amperage.

[FC7039]

The more I read the more I realize I don’t know much. The RLA is not the BTU but Rated Load Amperage.

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by FC7039

The more I read the more I realize I don’t know much. The RLA is not the BTU but Rated Load Amperage.

Correct, FC7039. Below are a few other electrical acronyms & some further explanation that might help you and other AirForums members who are interested:

• RLA = Rated Load Amperage
• FLA = Full Load Amperage
• LRA = Locked-Rotor Amperage

The above terms apply to all AC electrical appliances, not just air conditioners (A/Cs).

Given you're all EasyStart experts now , everyone knows the LRA is the worst-case starting amps that a compressor can draw.

Beyond this, there has always been a debate and some confusion about the difference between RLA and FLA. Typically in most appliances, there is very little difference, so the FLA is used, but this is not the case with an A/C compressor. "Rated" versus "Full" mean just that. The FLA was derived while the device was operating under "full" load, whereas the RLA was derived while the device was operating under a "rated" load. In the case of an A/C compressor, "rated" basically translates to a specific set of environmental conditions. So, for example, A/C manufacturers are obliged under the rules of the Air Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute (formerly the ARI, now the AHRI - the American standards committee for HVACR) to rate or specify their device's amperage draw when it is operating at "standard ARHI" conditions, which are:

1. Indoor: 80°F dry bulb, 67°F wet bulb, and
2. Outdoor: 95°F dry bulb.

This would therefore be a "rated" load amperage (RLA). You typically only see an FLA specified for the blower fan only, but an RLA specified for the compressor. This is because environmental conditions most certainly affect the compressor amperage, but they do not affect the blower's amperage. Make sense? So, as has been discussed numerous times around AirForums in topics associated with A/Cs and EasyStart, the amount of current that the A/C compressor draws does increase with both outdoor temp and indoor temp/humidity. The cooler it is outside and the cooler/drier it is inside, the less amperage your A/C compressor will draw for that given set of conditions. The blower/fan will always draw the same amount of amps, unless its air filter becomes dirty or you close all of the supply/discharge vents.

And here's another tidbit for you: Contrary to what seems like common sense, all AC-induction fan motors draw LESS current when you restrict their air flow! This is because they are "air pumps" that are moving a "fluid" (air is a fluid), and when the you stop the flow, the blower actually cavitates in the air like a water pump can cavitate in water. When the blower is not "moving" the air, it isn't doing any "work". From all of the Newton's Law equations you learned in school, you know that Work requires Energy. Less work means less energy! So, when the blower is cavitating (i.e. blocked), it draws less power and therefore less amps. Similarly, if your A/C were to ever develop a leak and lose all of its refrigerant ("Freon"), the compressor would stop doing any work, so it too would draw less amps when running.

Class dismissed!