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Old 05-09-2012, 09:23 AM   #43
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re: "These sort of personal insults"

Please identify for me what was personal in my comment that was quoted. My comment was addressed to what was said (which is why I used a quote), not to the person. I did not address the character of the person but rather the nature of the assertion.

As for what is toxic in these forums, I'd suggest it is the penchant to toss out allegations with no basis, conspiracy theories of a political nature, rationalizing via logical fallacies, and misreading posts to find something that wasn't there in order to take offense.

re: "no evidence to back the effectiveness up all of these procedures" -- quite a bit of evidence, actually. For instance, see what a drop of bleach does to a bacterial colony under the microscope. (it also does a number on plastic, too, like PEX or PVC).

But the issue of proving something is safe is the logical fallacy of proving a negative, proving that there are no risks. That is a fallacy that is the leverage behind many FUD mongering campaigns. You can't run every risk down to absolute zero and the issue isn't 'safe' vs 'not safe'. The issue is 'safe enough?' and 'at what cost?'.

When you sanitize your water tank, you express the fact that it provides safety benefits at a reasonable cost. When you use bottled water for drinking, you are saying that you think the cost of bottled water is worth a safety improvement (but just don't look too closely at the safety of bottled water!). Same issues at play when you decide to take your rig out on the road and drive the route and manner you do.

On these 'safety' and 'risk' allegations prevalent in many 'discussions', the evidence starts with the obvious. From there to the standards for water safety is a long road of detection, measurement, evaluation, policy, and process. Throwing that aside, as in the assertion at question, is irresponsible.

That still leaves room but the basic principle is that any new hypothesis needs support of a weight equivalent to that of its context. If you think something represents a risk in the water supply, you need to support that at the same level all the other standards are supported.

The most obvious factors to consider include the fact that people are living healthier and longer, there is less 'stomach flue' when touring and visiting, there are fewer crashes per vehicle mile on the roads, and many many more people can enjoy an RV lifestyle that was unimaginable 50 years ago.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:25 AM   #44
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Very well said, jim
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:05 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl View Post
re: "These sort of personal insults"

Please identify for me what was personal in my comment that was quoted. My comment was addressed to what was said (which is why I used a quote), not to the person. I did not address the character of the person but rather the nature of the assertion.

As for what is toxic in these forums, I'd suggest it is the penchant to toss out allegations with no basis, conspiracy theories of a political nature, rationalizing via logical fallacies, and misreading posts to find something that wasn't there in order to take offense.

To distinguish what was said from the person saying it is trying to find a difference where there is none. If you could distinguish between a person and their words, it would mean the words were alive in themselves and had no relation to the person saying (or in this case, writing) them. That is a logical fallacy.

As for the 2nd quoted paragraph, I agree that all those things are toxic (though I believe personal insults are worse) but we would apply them to different statements and people.

Gene
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:11 AM   #46
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re: "to distinguish what was said from the person saying it is trying to find a difference where there is none."

Therefore any disagreement about substance, ideas, or allegations can be interpreted as a personal attack?

The fact is that distinguishing between the person from the words is possible and is a critical part of an civil discourse. See Thomas Gordon's books for a layman's approach for parents, leaders, and teachers.

The technique of labeling something a logical fallacy without naming which one is not helpful, either. There are some good books on logical fallacies (going back to the Greek who first catalogued them) and some good web pages on the ideas. Well worth reading if honest discussion is a goal.

These topics, about the nature of exposition and debate and matters of intellectual integrity used to be primary topics even in high school English and Literature. Is it getting so bad that the basis of the entire field is now dismissed with a cavalier unfounded allegation?

This sort of thing is important because it so rots our social and civil discourse. When everything is taken as personal, nothing becomes personal and everything becomes a fight. No learning and no growth can occur.

Interesting how this fits with that show I saw last night on the dark ages on the History Channel...
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:01 PM   #47
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You keep on tryin', bryanl . . wanting to be seen as "reasonable" is always good for a laugh when one is parrotting industry lobbyists. Let others define your argument boundaries and you can then explain the "logic" to us dunderheads. Someday -- when you understand this -- it'll be a breakthrough moment.

Endocrine disruptors are worth anyones time to read on. The effects on large groups is the point to public health initiatives. No different than the effects of, geez, lead solder in plumbing.

If PEX lacks this "problem" then it is that much more a better choice. An additional reason.

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Old 05-15-2012, 08:42 PM   #48
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Pex is the hot item in the plumbing world....most of the houses in our neighborhood have pulled all the copper and replaced it with Pex.....it most certainly function well in our Airstreams
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:54 AM   #49
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A quick question about pix. Instead of using the crimping tool, could you use stainless steel hose clamps on all of the connections? The advantage would be ease of installation and you could take it back apart for repairs.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:39 AM   #50
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Keith', I think if hose clamps worked, we'd have heard about it. I think Pex is too hard to get a good seal with a clamp and that's why a crimping tool is needed (and even that can leak sometimes). I've never repaired Pex, and this is a guess. But until there is enough experience with clamps working, I'd stick with either crimping or Sharkbite fittings.

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Old 08-06-2012, 10:03 AM   #51
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Ditto Gene's thought process. I re-plumbed the cold water side of our bathroom faucet and toilet feed over the weekend using 1/2" pex. This stuff is hard and I don't think a hose clamp will provide the clamp forces necessary for a reliable connection. They do sell stainless clinch clamps for pex.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:54 AM   #52
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Hose clamps and PEX is not a good idea. A hose clamp connection will eventually fail because you can't get enough compression on one to deform the PEX enough to bite into the barbs on the brass fittings. I have seen it done and there are connections in my trailer that are done that way. I have not gotten around to fixing them. Most of them are where the water heater was replaced and rigged by incompetent and uncaring service personell.

I don't EVER hook it to the city water. I always use the fresh water tank and pump to limit pressures. I turn the pump off when not using the trailer and vent pressure by opening a faucet. Most of mine is the old PB stuff but the rigged portions need to be replace with PEX.

Someone said you could use the PEX fittings and pinch clamps with PB. I have not tried it yet. I don't think I am up to replacing all the plumbing in the trailer with PEX but I am going to get rid of the rigged stuff whatever it takes. When the PB becomes a problem, I will replace it but for now it is staying.

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Old 08-06-2012, 11:02 AM   #53
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How much does the tools cost for the crimp fittings? I'm installing new tanks and need to add a fresh water tank and connect it to the current copper system. So far the system looks good and don't think it ever froze. It's been in the south most of it life..
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:17 AM   #54
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$40 at Lowes for a tool that will crimp the stainless steel crimp fittings on both 3/8 and 1/2 PEX.
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:39 AM   #55
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How much does the tools cost for the crimp fittings? I'm installing new tanks and need to add a fresh water tank and connect it to the current copper system. So far the system looks good and don't think it ever froze. It's been in the south most of it life..



I priced several at Home Depot a few weeks ago. Their prices ranged from $25 to $100. Here's a link to their web page.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=pex%20crimp&Ns=None&Ntpr =1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=SEARCH+ALL

I planned to re-plumb using all copper as original, but copper prices are high enough that it was cost effective for me to proceed with pex...even with the cost of the crimp and ring cutter tools.

Also if you plan to tie into the pex from an existing copper line you can use a Gatorbite, Sharkbite, or other comparable brand fitting that connects differing material types without the need for special tools. In fact they sell fittings for complete system configurations (tees. elbows, couplings, etc.) With these you would not need crimp tools, but you'd need to consider any price differences in material costs to see if it makes financial sense to go this route.

Good luck
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:38 PM   #56
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If you are only dealing with the suction side then Re-enforced Tygon will work. So from the tank to the pump inlet flex hose and hose clamps will work fine. PEX is better but overkill for something that sees no pressure. PEX will have less contaminates and won't cause a funny plastic taste. I don't drink out of the fresh water systems anyway.

Perry
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