To PEX or not To PEX

[Denis4x4]

Did an extensive remodel and used PEX throughout. However, fired the plumber and the new guy pointed out that the PEX warranty calls for the use of PEX fittings. Replaced five where we could get to them and crossed our fingers for the rest of them. I think the first guy cleaned out his shop truck as there were three different styles/brands out of five fittings.

However, I don't see this as a problem on an AS as the system is not under pressure 24/7.

[Minno]

Originally Posted by worldinchaos

I wish I lived near you. They only sell the blue and red at HD and Lowe's near me in some stores, and then it's only in 50' rolls. I need only ~15 feet of blue and 4 feet of red. Ah well, guess I can't be picky about everything. White it is.

Here's an online store that I've bought heating supplies from before. They sell red and blue pex in 20 foot lengths, as well as all sorts of heating and plumbing fittings. For kicks, I put a blue 20' pex pipe in the cart and did the shipping estimate to me. Shipping costs as much as the pex...

JM Eagle EverPex Radiant Heating Tubing Pex Tubing Manifold

You could color code the white pex with red and blue tape wrapped around the pipe close to each end, or even use a red and blue sharpie, to help keep from crossing hot and cold if that's a concern.

Chris

[perryg114]

I bought a bunch of PEX stuff already, some of which I can take back. If I go PEX I won't use the sharkbite type fittings except in emergencies or in places where it is easy to get to.

Perry

Originally Posted by jdalrymple

Perry, sounds as though your choice is made?

My home was built in the mid 80s, and plumbed in the polybutylene that was prone to failure. In fact we qualified for some of the class action money. I found that info out while searching the web to find out how sorry a product the polybute was.

We replumbed with pex, mostly because of the ease of use. The house is on a slab, so the plumbing had to go in the walls similar to wiring. Ten years in and no problems. We did use the brass fittings and crimp rings. We got around the tight location problems by pre- assembling what we could in the open and keeping the crimps required the the tight spots to a minimum.

Regards,

JD

[bryanl]

re: "My trialer has PB tubing in it now. There are lots of jury rigged connections that are leak prone" -- Shell lost a lawsuit back in the 90's on this and the plumbers had some good business for a while replacing the aluminum crimped acrylic fittings in a lot of mobile homes.

Hard water is hazardous to copper and iron.

Chlorine is hazardous to plastics (including PVC).

Nothing last forever.

In a TT, the pipe size comment above seems pertinent. Rather difficult to get smaller sizes of PVC or CPVC.

But, if it's not one thing, it's another ...

[Chuck]

Is it really advantageous to use 3/8ths for the hot lines? The factory plumbed mine with 3/8ths for hot, and 1/2 for cold...but it seems that most people re-do with 1/2 for both.

[toastie]

I went with 1/2” copper, all lines will see 55 max / 30 min psi at all times, my 55 Safari was a clean sheet of paper design. Will not use any anti freeze, can remove water pump, hot water and fresh water tanks for winter storage. Water traps are waterless and the only problem that I see is to make sure all water is removed from toilet valve. HOWEVER, if I was doing just a remodel I would go with PEX for sure.

toastie

[bganso]

I'm replacing both the galley and bath faucets.

I'm using Shark Bite fittings in the bath area where I had to cut the existing vinyl pipe. I'm not sure this was PEX tubing. Using a standard cutting tool, the pipe flattened out before cutting all the way through and remained slightly deformed although I was able to slip the Shark Bite fitting on the end. Once all the work is complete, I can complete the hook up and check for leaks.

Two questions: 1) What's your experience with the existing vinyl plumbing vs. the newer PEX or Shark Bite fittings, am I likely to have a leak? 2) The salesman at Ace hardware said most plumbers use hydralic crimping tools for PEX fittings. Ace only sells one that works in conjunction with a pair of channel lock pliers for leverage. It seems these will work just fine, but what's the consensus of this group?

Bruce

[Bill M.]

have no idea what the group consensus is. I like and strongly reccomend the pex. I use the stainless steel crimp type rings. the tool is $40 from Lowes or Home Depot. It works on both 3/8" and 1/2" lines. It is a complete racheting tool. I think modern pex is better than the gray tubing in my 25 year old airstreams. but a lot of that stuff is still in there and not leaking. what has happened is that the PO's let it freeze. I use the brass fittings with the pex. If you let it freeze the plastic fittings are better. I am not going to let it freeze. I really do not see a reason not to use the Pex with the crimp fittings. I just replaced a pvc line under my deck that we let freeze. After seeing what that looked like I will never use PVC again for anything. I just got my tool and replaced it with a single run of Pex with a couple of the purple clamps to turn corners. 2 joints, 5 min to run what took and hour with the pvc, and I bet it lasts.

[Gene]

I haven't used PEX, but I watched a plumber and he used the Sharkbite fittings—they are quick and save labor time, but they are expensive. I've used them on CPVC a few times and they do work very well.

I have done a lot of CPVC. It is easy to do in many places, but has shortcomings in places like a trailer. You have to buy all the fittings, cut them to length, clean, use purple primer, glue (3 steps process) and work them through the tight spaces. That means lots and lots of joints and more possibilities of leaks because you may pick up some dirt in those hard to get spaces when going through the 3 step process. All those little fittings add up to more money spent than you may think. With PEX you just snake it through after covering the hole at the end with something to keep dirt out of it.

I know no one intends for the water lines to freeze, but stuff happens. PEX is far more forgiving than CPVC.

Gene

[Gene]

Now that I've read the thread, I am reminded of the toxicity question. Not only is the CPVC cement toxic, but so is the pipe. Chemicals leach out of it that are endocrine disrupters. Regulatory agencies have been avoiding this question because the oil and gas industry controls this country, but this is a real threat to our health. It seems to hit men and boys more than women in this case.

Before I knew this, I used CPVC, but I wouldn't again. I'd learn how to crimp PEX to avoid the cost of Sharkbite and go forth, plumbing my way along.

Gene

[Jackfre]

I'd be reluctant to use the cpvc with glued fittings in any area that is concealed. Vibration and all. Over the years I've installed it all and at this point think the pex is the best. I'll be re-piping the house with it this summer. Low Ph prevents use of copper. I use the Uponor or Rehau pex. I have the tubing expander but it is extremely difficult to use in tight spaces, even on small dia tubing. I understand that Milwaukee ha$ made a drill type expander. Crimp rings seem to be the way to go from a cost/set-up standpoint. One thing on the tubing diameter. The fittings act as bushings and reduce the diameter. In our last house I remodeled the bathrooms and did one in per and one in copper. I used as few fittings as possible on the pex. Back to back identical lay-outs with same shower valves and heads. The pex piped shower had substantially less pressure than the copper. Unless you can make very lazy bends use the support brackets for the 90 deg turns. No kinks then.

[bganso]

The Shark Bite fittings worked with no leaks. I only had a small leak between the faucet connector and the Shark Bite fitting. Another 1/4 turn of the wrench should fix this. All of this was being tested prior to new countertops going in today, since it's easier to access everything from the top. BTW, I'm using faucets from IKEA. Don't know how they'll hold up in the long run, but the visual quality is superb. The bath faucet is chrome over solid brass, is small in size (perfect for AS), and only cost $25. See it here: OLSKÄR Bath faucet - IKEA

Bruce

[bryanl]

PEX fittings are not for vinyl -- check the spec for the fittings for best results. Sharkbyte and Quest fittings are often suitable for both PEX and copper and may be removable or may not - check the specs for the fitting.

Note that the Sharkbyte (Lowe's gatorbyte) fittings are push on. There is nothing to tighten. Flair-It and Quest both use a threaded nut and that can be tightened.

The reason for the Sharkbyte or Flair-It PEX fittings is convenience. Unless you are doing enough to amortize the cost of a crimping tool, other fittings types can be a better choice, especially when doing in place repairs where space is limited.

re: "I am reminded of the toxicity question. Not only is the CPVC cement toxic, but so is the pipe. Chemicals leach out of it that are endocrine disrupters. Regulatory agencies have been avoiding this question because the oil and gas industry controls this country"

oh, please. people aren't dying in the streets (or in their homes) and conspiracy theories to support FUD where there is no factual basis are delusional. This sort of crap is getting so old you'd think people would get over it. These sorts of unfounded and absurd allegations tend to be used to fog over the real problems and that can lead to tragedy (remember radio moscow in the 70's? short wave listenening was never more fun ;-) ). Get out of the cave and look at the real world. Consider the implications of the fantasies.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by bryanl

oh, please. people aren't dying in the streets (or in their homes) and conspiracy theories to support FUD where there is no factual basis are delusional. This sort of crap is getting so old you'd think people would get over it. These sorts of unfounded and absurd allegations tend to be used to fog over the real problems and that can lead to tragedy (remember radio moscow in the 70's? short wave listenening was never more fun ;-) ). Get out of the cave and look at the real world. Consider the implications of the fantasies.

These sort of personal insults are what makes a lot of Forums toxic. You have a lot of uncommon ideas and I read them in case they make sense to me. I don't reply calling you "delusional", purveyor of "crap", "unfounded and absurd", comparing you to a "radio moscow" listener whatever that is supposed to mean, "cave dweller" and promotor of "fantasies".

Gene

[xrvr]

Why are his ideas uncommon? I find them factual and relevant to today's world. Jim

[worldinchaos]

Yes, lets keep this forum civil. But in response to the original comment, I must add:
You are completely right. I mean it's not like we would use a product for 50 years when we are told it is safe and has no adverse health effects and then the research starts showing that it is actually bad for you. That could never happen.

So after you finishing creating your potable water system out of PVC and glue, make sure to insulate the heated lines with asbestos, put some DDT on your vegetable plants, and wash your hands afterwards in benzene. Because those stories are just a bunch of conspiracies....

Seriously, lets be safe out there. Why use PVC and PVC glue if PEX is only slightly more expensive and requires no chemical substances at all?

Edit: I meant this in a comical manner, but in rereading it came off agressive. I really do ask this last question out of curiosity and lack of understanding. I just don't see the benefits that outweigh the risk.

[Gene]

Jim, "uncommon" means to me that they are not the usual take on things. It is not a judgment whether they good or bad, factual or not or relevant in any world. It is also not a judgment about the person with the ideas.

Gene

[perryg114]

When I use PVC or CPVC products I don't drink water from them for several days after gluing stuff up. Most water supply lines including water mains are made of some sort of plastic pipe. So even if you make your plumbing out of stainless steel, you are still going to get carcinogens, neurotoxins, heavy metals etc. It is always a good idea to use a carbon filter for drinking water and to flush out water lines that are not used often before drinking. Water hoses hooked to your precious Airstream are going to add many more toxins than a little PVC. The tubing inside my house is copper but the 500 ft of water line leading to the house is PVC. There are miles and miles of plastic water mains before that. Should I stop drinking water from my Camelbak water bladder? It tastes like plastic especially when new and before being soaked in vinegar and hot water overnight. I bought a bunch of PEX stuff because I thought the PB stuff that is in my trailer was PEX. I make take this stuff back and put in CPVC. I would say that CPVC would have less leaching because it is cross linked and more chemically stable as a result. There is nothing like the smell of PVC cement. All kidding aside, it is almost impossible to remove all toxins from water. Water purity has gotten much better in the last 100yrs. There are still lead pipes in some areas. Chlorine is a toxin and so is Fluorine. The dentists don’t want you to know about the last one and many other toxins they put in your mouth.

Perry

[danlehosky]

I would use the Pex. I know this has been stated all throughout the forum but here are some solid reasons for this choice.
1. Pex piping is very forgiving in freezing situations. The pipe has a memory and when the expansion pressure is relieved it will return to it's original size.

2. The brass (not plastic) fittings are robust and the clips applied with the proper tension are almost bulletproof. No "O" rings to depend on.

3. If you put some thought into it you can fabricate some pieces where space is an issue. Make a diagram and do your crimping where you have some room.

4. Red for Hot and Blue for cold. While either color will work for either hot or cold this allows you to identify instantly which system you ar dealing with a year later when you've forgotten how you installed it.

All in all a properly installed Pex system is pretty much very well suited for tailers that encounter outside freezing systems.

Now we go to PVC or CPVC

!. The pipe is strong and able to withstand quite a bit of pressure but is brittle.

2. Joints must be properly prepared for solvent welding. Just cutting the pipe is not enough, You should champher both the inside and the outside edges of the pipe otherwise you are just scraping off the solvent when you make up the joint.

3. This pipe WILL split and crack when frozen. If the joints aren't properly prepared they will also fail if exposed to freezing temps.

4. The glue will smell bad for a very long time.

5. Taste. With daily use this is not much of an issue but plastic will impart a taste if the water is not flushed through enough.

6. I do not reccomend a solvent welede PVC or CPVC system for trailers

7. This type of pipe fatigues rapidly if exposed to UV rays.

Now Copper

1. Hire a good plumber and make him grade all of the piping to a low point drain for winter storage.

2. Be prepared to taste flux for several months until the system flushes itself out.

Mantle Block Systems. This is a system where a centrally mounted block with shut off valves controls the entire system. Each fixture has an individual line running to it.

1. This system is easy to install, no joints.

2. This pipe also has a memory so is forgiving if frozen.

3. You can use 3/8 piping but since each line is individual to each fixture you will use a lot of it.

4. I would consider this system for a trailer.


Shark Bite Fittings

1. Expensive

2. these fittings while good for repairs are not good overall choices for permanant installation. The seal is dependent on an "O" ring which is a good seal but is subject to certain chemical (winterizing antifreeze) failures. They also have a tendency to slightly shrink when not "wet" as when you drain your system for the winter.

3. Keep an assortment of these around for emergency repairs. They work great for this purpose but I would not reccoment them for long term permant installation.

There you have it. My take on potable water systems.
One last note. If you can insulate your cold water lines you will cut your condensation issues way down. But thats another tutorial.

Hope this helps
Dan

[Gene]

Perry, we too have PVC water mains here and to the house. There is copper and CPVC and now PEX in the house. It is pretty hard to eliminate toxins, but I prefer to do what I can when I can. Foam off gasses lots of nasty stuff too. Our trailer when new and not so new smelled of chemicals for about 1 1/2 years. It has been proved we all have Scotchguard in our bodies—does that make it easier to clean us?

Gene