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07-07-2009, 08:53 PM
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#1
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2 Rivet Member
1973 31' Sovereign
Vashon
, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 39
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How to remove the Toilet?
I'm removing everything in a mid-70's Sovereign bathroom. I don't see how to get the toilet out! Can anybody give me advice?
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07-07-2009, 09:15 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1968 28' Ambassador
Cedaredge
, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,542
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If you look behind the pedals in the front there is a bolt coming up with a nut on it. Take the nut off. Same in the back on the right or left, there will be a bolt coming up from the floor with a nut on it... You will have to push the pedals down to see it...
__________________
Jason
May you have at least one sunny day, and a soft chair to sit in..
2008 5.7 L V8 Sequoia
AIR # 31243
WBCCI # 6987
FOUR CORNERS UNIT
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07-07-2009, 10:11 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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There may be a plug under the seat that can be removed to get to the bolt towards the rear. There are usually 'secret' access holes or techniques. The floor pedal trick is a common one and is often facilitated by using a soda bottle or something in the toilet throat to hold the slide valve open and take tension off the pedals.
The toilet is held to a closet flange with two bolts. The closet flange screws into the top of the waste tank and is screwed to the floor. There is a seal that seats the toilet and it would probably be a good idea to replace it when you put things back together.
Different toilet brands use different positioning for their hold down bolts to the flange. That can be a problem sometimes when upgrading toilets and having to reposition the closet flange.
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07-08-2009, 06:06 AM
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#4
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Rivet Master
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor
, Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverslug75
...I don't see how to get the toilet out! Can anybody give me advice?
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Look for a +/- 3/4" flat cap on the top at the 10 to 11 o'clock position.
Pry off the cap and insert a thin wall socket (1/2" I think) on a long extension - this will allow you to reach the trailer rearward (left side when looking at it) toilet flange bolt. As has been indicated, the trailer forward (right side) flange bolt should be accessible from the foot valve area. On all of the Thetford toilets I have seen the flange bolts have been clocked to the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock position - there may well be other arrangements. The closet flange usually is free to rotate about the screw-in flange to allow for angling of the toilet should you desire to do so.
I just replaced the plastic original toilet in the trailer with a thetford aquamagic china bowl high profile model. Nasty job, but what an amazing overall improvement.
During the replacement I was able to unscrew the top flange assembly that secures the flange to the top of the holding tank. I then cut a circular hole into an approximately 12" X 14" piece of 5/8" plywood, and reinstalled the screw-in flange into the black water tank using the new piece of plywood as a strongback on top of the original 1/2" flooring. I ended up with a much stronger and secure toilet mount.
Make sure you utilize a new toilet flange gasket when you go back together with it.
__________________
Dennis
"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."
WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737
Trailer '78 31' Sovereign
Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
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07-08-2009, 10:46 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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The toilet riser that Thetford sells has a good rundown on bolt positions for various toilets on the back of the box. Take a look next time you're at your local RV parts house.
Adding 5/8" to the floor depth could cause a problem with the closet flange threads getting to the tank threads. A standard flange has a 1 3/4 depth and the deep one you can find sometimes is 2 1/4. male or female threads both common. 3" pipe thread.
The closet flange should be solidly screwed to the floor (with screws not long enough to go through the floor to protect the tank) and should not be twisted after it has been screwed into the waste tank and positioned for the toilet. There are usually 4 slots for the toilet bolts which have heads designed to be trapped in the slots.
But Dennis seems to be talking about two parts and that confuses me as I haven't seen one like that. There are differences between RV, mobile home, and house closet flanges but they are all one piece and screwed to the floor, too.
You shouldn't need to worry about the flange at any rate unless you have some floor rot to deal with or are changing toilets and the new one has a different bolt position preference.
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07-09-2009, 08:52 AM
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#6
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2 Rivet Member
1973 31' Sovereign
Vashon
, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 39
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Thanks to all for the explanations and advice. The toilet is out now thanks to you folks. Will a conventional toilet work as a replacement or do I need to stick with a Thetford or similar style?
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07-09-2009, 12:06 PM
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#7
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Rivets?
1992 29' Excella
2010 22' Interstate
Van By The River
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,361
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Depends...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverslug75
Will a conventional toilet work as a replacement or do I need to stick with a Thetford or similar style?
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What do you mean by conventional? The replacement must be an RV toilet. I suppose you could install a residential toilet but that's just not practical.
Pay attention to the arrangement of slots where the bolts can be installed. Thetford has an installation guide that gives you some pointers on which toilets are drop in replacements and which toilets require re-arranging the toilet flange.
Also check the space requirements. Depending on the height of the toilet, seat style etc. the toilet may not fit your rig.
Lucius
__________________
Lucius and Danielle
1992 29' Excella Classic / 2010 Interstate
2005 Chevrolet Suburban K2500 8.1L
2018 GMC Sierra K1500 SLT, 6.2L, Max Trailering
Got a cooped-up feeling, gotta get out of town, got those Airstream campin' blues...
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07-09-2009, 12:18 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor
, Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
Adding 5/8" to the floor depth could cause a problem with the closet flange threads getting to the tank threads. A standard flange has a 1 3/4 depth and the deep one you can find sometimes is 2 1/4. male or female threads both common. 3" pipe thread.
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I did have to pull up a bit on the black water tank threaded riser to make up the first thread.
Pipe strength is designed on the last full thread – as long as you have at least one thread made up properly the pipe will hold as designed in tension.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
The closet flange should be solidly screwed to the floor (with screws not long enough to go through the floor to protect the tank) and should not be twisted after it has been screwed into the waste tank and positioned for the toilet. There are usually 4 slots for the toilet bolts which have heads designed to be trapped in the slots.
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On the Thedford Closet Flanges used in the mid 70’s the design is similar to the illustration below:
The area in blue (the outer flange) indeed does rotate about the white section (inner pipe threaded pipe and gasket area). The blue area rotates for two reasons:
One, so that the toilet can be rotated to a position acceptable to the owner.
Two, in order to accommodate toilet bases that have the hold-down bolts in orientations other than the 90-270 position.
Even if you do not decide to add a strongback under the toilet the hold down screws can be removed from the existing flange and the outer flange rotated to line up to the requirements of a new toilet should such a realignment be necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
You shouldn't need to worry about the flange at any rate unless you have some floor rot to deal with or are changing toilets and the new one has a different bolt position preference.
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The problem with the 30+ year old airstreams is that the original ½” to 5/8” floor was just barely adequate when it was new. With time and use the floor has probably sagged to the point that a lot of weight is now being supported by the black water tank itself, via the toilet gasket compression into the white area in the example above. This weight has probably also caused the top of the black water tank to be deformed downward.
In addition to a sagging floor you may well have found that Airstream cut an unnecessarily large hole in the area of the black water tank inlet pipe (I did). This further acerbates the problem of an aging, possibly rotting floor not being strong enough to properly support a new toilet.
To ensure against floor sag and the toilet putting undue pressure on the throat of the black water tank inlet I added the above mentioned plywood. The added height was just right to bring the foot valve to full action where I had added the Oak Parquet on the floor. The overall “sitting” height was just right with the “high” Thetford seat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvestysly
Pay attention to the arrangement of slots where the bolts can be installed. Thetford has an installation guide that gives you some pointers on which toilets are drop in replacements and which toilets require re-arranging the toilet flange.
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As above, the flange can be rotated by removing the hold down screws. Once the toilet is removed these screws are readily accessible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvestysly
Also check the space requirements. Depending on the height of the toilet, seat style etc. the toilet may not fit your rig.
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The rear bath IS extremely “tight” your options may be limited.
Silverslug75:
Now that you have pulled yours could you please post some pics of the demolition and the exposed flange - and close-ups of any floor rot or degradation.
__________________
Dennis
"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."
WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737
Trailer '78 31' Sovereign
Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
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07-09-2009, 07:41 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
1976 31' Sovereign
ozark
, Missouri
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,040
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You will need.... Stretch Armstrong arms ......and .......very strong toddler hands and fingers..
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07-09-2009, 07:46 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
Lexington
, Minnesota
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,982
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Sawz-all
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07-09-2009, 10:17 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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good stuff, thanks Dennis. I haven't seen one of those blue ringed rotatable flanges you described - yet. but my experience is limited to a sample of only 3 so far, thank goodness.
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07-10-2009, 05:51 AM
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#12
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Rivet Master
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor
, Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
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Picture
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
... I haven't seen one of those blue ringed rotatable flanges you described - yet...
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I loaded this pic numerous times yesterday - never could get the Forums to pick it up.
__________________
Dennis
"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."
WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737
Trailer '78 31' Sovereign
Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
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07-10-2009, 08:19 AM
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#13
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4 Rivet Member
1970 27' Overlander
ARLINGTON
, TEXAS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 335
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Thank you all...Now the "dirty" work begins.
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07-10-2009, 08:39 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor
, Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
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Nasty jobs -
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDRTEXAS
Thank you all...Now the "dirty" work begins.
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For what it's worth....
I have had to "get into" an Airstream Black Tank system for or five times now - what I do is to make sure the black tank is entirely empty, "rock" fluid from the grey tank into the black tank as often as possible, letting it drain entirely between surges. I then run at least 5 or 6 gallons of fresh water into the toilet, just letting it drain directly to the sewer hose. After that the black tank is filled about half way and a half gallon or so of Chlorox or similar chemical is dumped into the tank for the ride home. I let that slosh around and then dump it at the closest Flying J en route to the house, leaving the valve open and the valve cap off for the rest of the trip home - I have found this method removes all of the residiual solids and, in most cases ALL of the "smells" when I have to remove a toilet or work on the dump valves or the interconnect dump piping. Certainly it does not make working on the sewerage tank systems an enjoyable job, but it does make it more tolerable when you can eliminate the odors.
__________________
Dennis
"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."
WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737
Trailer '78 31' Sovereign
Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
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07-15-2009, 08:45 PM
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#15
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2 Rivet Member
1973 31' Sovereign
Vashon
, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 39
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So, this is where this is at now. There is a patch of plywood on the floor (with the fake vinyl parquet tiles) which it is safe to assume was put there to cover rot, don't you think? It seems solid now. Can I leave it there? I would HATE to have to rip out and replace the entire floor. Or is it really all that hard to do? What we have left is just a hole to the tank underneath as far as I can tell. Also here are photos of the flange I removed. Yuck!
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07-15-2009, 08:57 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
1968 28' Ambassador
Cedaredge
, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,542
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Sorry, but you need to fix the floor. If you don't and it's rotten around the edge where the floor goes under the shell. You will get rear end separation. Very Bad.
You can just patch the bit that is rotten as long as you cut the flooring out over frame members. then drill holes through and put some screws in them...
__________________
Jason
May you have at least one sunny day, and a soft chair to sit in..
2008 5.7 L V8 Sequoia
AIR # 31243
WBCCI # 6987
FOUR CORNERS UNIT
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06-04-2010, 07:30 AM
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#17
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3 Rivet Member
1978 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
SOUTH ANHERST
, Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 172
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HI ALL I AM A NEW TO THE AIRSTREAM FAMILY AND HAVE NEVER DID THIS BEFORE AND HAVE JUST PURCHASED A 1975 ARGOSY AND WOULD LIKE TO DO ONE OF THE FOLLOWING
REPLACE THE TOILT , CAN A NEW ONE BE PURCHASE AND IF SO WERE??
OR IF NOT CAN A LID FOR THE TOILT BE PURCHASED AND WERE ?
AND MY LAST QUESTION BEING OF 1975 JUST HOW HARD WOULD IT BE TO REMOVE AND REPLACE????
Thanks All George
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06-05-2010, 12:08 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1977 31' Sovereign
1985 25' Sovereign
South Central Rockies...
, "...'Stream'n the Dream" thru the USA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 535
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Dennis: Good suggestion, my toilet is a bit "wobbly" - your fix should make it rock solid.
Thanks!
__________________
Art - W0ABX
High Desert Country of the Rockies
'85 Sovereign 25'er
WBCCI: 2197; AIR #: 36503; TAC #: NM-5
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07-28-2014, 06:13 PM
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#19
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3 Rivet Member
1978 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
SOUTH ANHERST
, Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 172
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New to the fourm ,
I have be gathering info on the removal and replacement of my 1975 Argosy Airstream toilet to replace the valve in the back that is leaking .
So just so I understand ,there is a bolt with a 1/2 inch nut that needs to be removed in the front by the step pedal and I have removed the cap on the left rear and I will need a 1/2 with a extention to remove the nut I can not see , should I have a deep scocket with magnetic tip????????
thanks all
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07-28-2014, 06:41 PM
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#20
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2 Rivet Member
1976 Argosy 22
cranbrook
, British Columbia
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 72
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Gosman, I have a 76 Argosy and was able to reach in and slip a ratcheting 1/2 wrench on to that back nut. A set of ratcheting wrenches are indispensable for those hard to reach places, once on the nut you do not have to keep taking it on and off the nut. Just rotate in the direction needed and pull back till loose.
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