Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-15-2010, 02:43 PM   #1
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
water pump loses pressure and jackhammers

Hi I was wondering if anyone could advise me on whether the water pump is at fault for this behavior or whether it is another issue involved. I can purchase a new pump but if it is another problem that is time and money ill spent and still wouldn't work, so if I can get a few comments from you plumbing experts I would greatly appreciate any help or tips you might be able to give me in troubleshooting the issue.

Here's the problem. When I use the single control to mix hot and cold water to a comfortable temperature in the shower the water pressure decreases and it starts to jackhammer very loudly and shakes the entire trailer. Full hot or full cold has perfect pressure and no extra noise or vibration. The kitchen and bathroom sinks have separate controls for hot and cold water and do not cause any problem either. What can the matter be?

Thanks.
__________________

__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 03:00 PM   #2
Site Team
 
azflycaster's Avatar
 
1975 25' Tradewind
Dewey , Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,127
Images: 62
Blog Entries: 1
I don't think the pump is the problem. I would suspect the single control valve is causing the water flow to be restricted and that is causing the pump to cycle on and off rapidly which would cause all the noise. I would replace the cartridge in the single control valve.
__________________

__________________

Richard

Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
azflycaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 03:04 PM   #3
Rivet Master
 
easyride's Avatar
 
1977 27' Overlander
1973 27' Overlander
1963 19' Globetrotter
Naples , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,259
Images: 1
My guess is you have a Moen pressure balancing valve,it is not getting enough pressure to make it balance correctly,you might check the screen on the inlet of the pump for crud. I think there is a lack of volume,which lowers the pressure with both hot and cold.Does it work ok on city water? Dave
__________________
easyride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 03:47 PM   #4
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Easyride, I will go connect to city water and run that test. Frankly I don't know, I have only had one horribly hot and cold shower with holding tank water thus far. Thank you.

Richard thank you. I am beginning to suspect it is not the pump also. I am trying to look at the sprayer head first because that is easier for me to take apart. Then perhaps I can find documentation on how to dismantle the single control valve.

I received this document from Sureflow agreeing with you Richard that it is not the pump. The info he sent speaks of removing restrictors.

Attached is a picture of the shower sprayer, is there something there for me to remove?

edit: phooey the document exceeds the limit. Here it is copied and pasted.


RV 2088 PUMP CYCLING AND FLOW RESTRICTIONS

NOTE:

Is your pump cycling excessively? Common correctable causes of excessive pump cycling are flow restrictors. Flow restrictors work on the principle that if there is a smaller hole, less water will come out. While this is true, back pressures build up on the pump, causing it to cycle and give erratic water flow. Flow restrictors are generally found in faucets and shower heads. Removal of these flow restrictors can reduce or eliminate pump cycling problems.

FAUCET FLOW RESTRICTOR REMOVAL

Unscrew the faucet nozzle and examine the inside. The flow restrictors
usually located between a gasket and a particle screen. It looks like a circular
disk with a small hole in the center. Remove the flow restrictor and replace
the screen and gasket. Be sure to clean the screen if it is dirty. The flow
restrictor may be a part of the aerator assembly. If it is, carefully pry out
the flow restrictor from the assembly, and replace the aerator, screen
and gasket. Replace the faucet nozzle, and you’re ready to go.

SHOWER HEAD FLOW RESTRICTOR REMOVAL

There are usually 2 types of shower head flow restrictors: the disk-type, similar to the faucet flow restrictor, and an integral “low-flow” ball socket flow restrictor.

DISK-TYPE SHOWER HEAD FLOW RESTRICTOR REMOVAL

Disk-type flow restrictors are usually located between the shower
Head and the hose line. Simply unscrew the head, remove the flow
Restrictor, and replace the head. Be sure to clean and replace
Any gaskets and screens.

BALL SOCKET FLOW RESTRICTOR MODIFICATION

Ball socket flow restrictors need to be removed and have a
Larger (3/4”) hole drilled in them to allow more flow. Be
Careful while doing this. Simply disassemble the shower
Head, drill a ľ” flow hole, clean up any debris, and
Reassemble the shower head.

Please refer to the SHURflo Service Manual 911-124, page 4, OUTLET PLULMBING, for more information on other causes of excessive pump cycling.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	alsonsshower.jpg
Views:	517
Size:	194.0 KB
ID:	106856  
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 04:06 PM   #5
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
More thoughts to colaborate what you two have been mentioning. I received a second e-mail from Sureflow and very promptly I might add.

Carol:

Application Engineering indicates the shower mixer is probably the problem. The info on restrictions and the impact on the pump is still valid.

Good luck,

Kevin McLean
SHURflo Customer Service
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 04:08 PM   #6
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
I don't know if I will find enough documentation and be able to tackle this myself but I may try. I am glad to know that before we bought a new pump we still need to correct the problem and then we may not need a new pump at this time anyway. I will keep you posted.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 06:34 PM   #7
Moderator
 
HiHoAgRV's Avatar

 
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,326
Images: 29
Blog Entries: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I don't know if I will find enough documentation and be able to tackle this myself but I may try. I am glad to know that before we bought a new pump we still need to correct the problem and then we may not need a new pump at this time anyway. I will keep you posted.
If you don't mind being a bit bold...
Look for a local hardware store that carries replacement cartridges including stuff for MOEN. Our local ACE store is an example...
Haul the trailer up to the parking lot and wander inside the store...
When they ask 'can I help you'...

swapping the insert is real easy once ya see how it works (at least on my 2 'streams it has been)...hopefully the store experts can unscrew the handle, pull the valve, ID the replacement and re-insert the new one...
__________________
Hi Ho Silver RV! Vernon, Sarah, Mac the Border Collie -
A honkin' long 34' named AlumaTherapy http://www.airforums.com/forums/f205...num-54749.html
and a 26' '63 Overlander, Dolly http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...ome-71609.html
HiHoAgRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 05:29 PM   #8
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Hi Ho that is a marvelous idea. Yes I could do that when I am on the road definitely. I will remember that.

So far I have taken off the sprayer head and soaked it in vinegar and it still goes cockeyed goofy and Brad took out the ball in it and basically that wasn't the issue. We took off the handle control and pulled out the cartridge and that made hot water and cold water alternate without moving the control at all. He has put it back in and its still jackhammering. The screws holding the pump were loose and we cleaned the filter but that wasn't it. It is a Aquajet (not Sureflow) 3.5 gpm and 6 amps. My DH thinks I still need a new pump. Oh I hooked up city water and there is no problem then.

Does that make anything at all more transparent in this issue?

The Airstream was built in 2003 and has not been used and has just been sitting. The toilet was never used so I suspect the pump didn't get a lot of use the few times anyone was in the Airstream when it wasn't winterized. It cycles pump motor, then jack hammers then quiet then repeats.

If I were to purchase a new pump is there a specific brand that is better than the others? Do I want to pay more and get a variable speed model rather than intermittent, or is it important to keep the amps down? I read that some go to 10 amps on full flow but less on low flow. What about pressure, do I need to choose one pressure over another? I was thinking a flow rate of under 4gm but perhaps more than 2.8gm would be good and I was thinking about purchasing the Flojet VSD sensor one, locally I can buy a Sureflow 2088 which I think is the basic model that they tell me all the units (sobs) on the lot have in them. The basic models appear to be running around $80 and the fancy ones $180.00 give or take on both in either direction depending upon where they are purchased. Will the more expensive models please me so much more and be quieter, that would be nice? Water is something we use often so unobtrusive and reliable would be super. Any tips?

Thanks.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 05:45 PM   #9
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
hi c...

the earlier posts assume this HAMMERING originates at/near the shower valving/fixtures.

but that may NOT be the case.
_________

r u reporting that the HAMMERING noise happens with ALL pressurized (pump) usage?

sinks, toilet, shower?

is the hammering noise/vibration coming from the general LOCATION of the pump?

but seems to be TRANSMITTED to the fixtures and shower stall?

IF that's the case, this is VERY TYPICAL for that pump model.

the pump can be adjusted (there is a tiny screw on the underside)

the adjustment can SOFTEN the hammering effect, but not totally eliminate it...

the HARD LINES attached directly to the pump (inlet/outet) can be replaced with FLEXIBLE lines...

steel braided flex lines used in/out of the pump will improve this some.

it's possible the rubber FEET on the pump are missing or HARD or loose...

again, addressing that will help.
_________

but ultimately this is common with the assembly and gear a/s used.

so replacing the pump with a QUIETER MODEL and FLEX LINES is an option...

the MOST COVERED pump replacement (many threads on this) is the one LEWSTER used to recommend...

Extreme Series

having made the change i can report the extreme series with smart sensor is CLEARLY more gentle at moving water...

the "hammering" effect is 98% eliminated in my usage.

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 06:27 PM   #10
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
hi c...

the earlier posts assume this HAMMERING originates at/near the shower valving/fixtures.

but that may NOT be the case.
_________

That is what I thought was happening. But after going out now and testing and looking you are absolutely correct and I was mistaken.

r u reporting that the HAMMERING noise happens with ALL pressurized (pump) usage?

sinks, toilet, shower?

I forgot to flush in my test but either sink or the shower have that pump rocking back and forth like it's alive.

is the hammering noise/vibration coming from the general LOCATION of the pump?

YES

but seems to be TRANSMITTED to the fixtures and shower stall?

YES! I didn't know that. The entire wall and the hose and sprayer shake. It is quite daunting.

IF that's the case, this is VERY TYPICAL for that pump model.

Typical, my goodness. I was afraid of disturbing the neighbors and attracking attention down the whole row...

the pump can be adjusted (there is a tiny screw on the underside)

We will see what that does, but I am already leaning towards purchasing a new one after I read the lewsters thread.

the adjustment can SOFTEN the hammering effect, but not totally eliminate it...

the HARD LINES attached directly to the pump (inlet/outet) can be replaced with FLEXIBLE lines...

I think it is a braided flex line coming out, it is similar to white water hose and an ample amount of it almost coiled. Going in through the screen is rigid white thin pipe that is attached to more thin rigid white pipe that goes up and over and out of sight. So there is another thing we can do for improvement.


steel braided flex lines used in/out of the pump will improve this some.

it's possible the rubber FEET on the pump are missing or HARD or loose...

again, addressing that will help.

They were loose, now tighten down upon carpet but I could use a mousepad for cushion perhaps, or would a layer of closed cell foam be good?
_________

but ultimately this is common with the assembly and gear a/s used.

so replacing the pump with a QUIETER MODEL and FLEX LINES is an option...

the MOST COVERED pump replacement (many threads on this) is the one LEWSTER used to recommend...

Extreme Series

having made the change i can report the extreme series with smart sensor is CLEARLY more gentle at moving water...

the "hammering" effect is 98% eliminated in my usage.

cheers
2air'
There is the one mystery left unsolved. The one and only shower I took had almost no pressure with the handle in the middle for warm water and at that position it felt as if it were going to rattle the entire trailer loose and that something was seriously wrong. I was OK to use full hot then full cold but I could not get water going in the middle that would have been a comfortable mix. I am going out to test it again, or do you really have to be soaped up and neked in the shower in a campground for things like this to go wrong?

And while I am at it, may I ask should there be a length of small diameter heat ducting that just ends with a raw edge in the space there by the water pump with no tie down or particular place to go?

Thank you 2Air!!
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 06:33 PM   #11
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
And while I am at it, may I ask should there be a length of small diameter heat ducting that just ends with a raw edge in the space there by the water pump with no tie down or particular place to go?...]
yes, that's how the build 'em...

raw edges, and loose ducting, with an end that basically inhabits the pump space.

IF the hose MOVES during travel (mark it so u can check it...) or

bounces too much it's a sign the running gear needs balanced...


Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I am going out to test it again, or do you really have to be soaped up and neked in the shower in a campground for things like this to go wrong?...
for ACTUAL testing purposes, YES...

or at least UP a ladder without skivvies...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f442...ing-56829.html

and don't forget to post PHOTOS of the testing procedurez...

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 06:43 PM   #12
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
ah...yeah...
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 07:09 PM   #13
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
once yer nekked and wet...

there is something else to check/inspect and tweak...

before opening da'wallet 4 a new pump.

(brad probably did this already)

there is a PREscreen/basket in the water line before the pump...

IF there is AIR or a lotta crud in that pre screen, that will ADD to the hammer'n effect.

so CLEAN IT and burp it and make sure it's air tight.

then, go buy a new pump...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f445...ump-11002.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f445...ump-44160.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f445...ump-21747.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f443...tor-32191.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f443...mer-31479.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f445...tor-35062.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f283...ise-11373.html



cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2010, 05:59 PM   #14
Moderator
 
HiHoAgRV's Avatar

 
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,326
Images: 29
Blog Entries: 49
Oh Yea, My '91 has a secondary filter that only goes to a little spigot on the kitchen sink...
Long story short...It had air in the canister and would hammer like heck. Once all the air was gone things calmed down a bunch.

I did put one of them fancy variable speed pumps in my '77...real quiet and super easy to install. I hope the new owner is enjoying it.
__________________

__________________
Hi Ho Silver RV! Vernon, Sarah, Mac the Border Collie -
A honkin' long 34' named AlumaTherapy http://www.airforums.com/forums/f205...num-54749.html
and a 26' '63 Overlander, Dolly http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...ome-71609.html
HiHoAgRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water Pump Pressure PhilMateo Water Heaters, Filters & Pumps 2 12-20-2005 08:16 AM
Water Pump Pressure??? ssolid Water Heaters, Filters & Pumps 3 10-13-2005 12:59 AM
Help Needed! Water Pump Pressure Diablo Water Heaters, Filters & Pumps 3 05-19-2004 06:24 PM
water pump pressure AccessMaster Water Heaters, Filters & Pumps 3 08-22-2003 10:38 PM
Water pump pressure duration? Mr. Bliss Water Heaters, Filters & Pumps 11 04-21-2003 11:31 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.