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Old 12-26-2007, 09:21 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfishfred
... What bypass kit should i have them install, and what should it cost?...
hi fred

something like this, and under 20 bucks.

pump converter for pink stuff...

a/s SHOULD just include them installed from birth.

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:51 PM   #42
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Let The Dealer Do It

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfishfred
As I Have about 3 left weeks before final pickup of my 2007 FB SE , i was wondering if i should have the dealer install a bypass kit before winterizing it. They will not winterize it until after i go through the final PDI inspection at that time. What bypass kit should i have them install, and what should it cost? I'm picking up my rig from a southern california dealer (Revolution RV) where winterizing is not required in that area,then bringing it home to the Lake Tahoe area which requires winterizing.
I would definitely recommend asking the dealer to install the kit. I would be interested how they actually access the pump to install the kit. I wish I had sufficient knowledge at the tie of my purchase but we learn from experience.
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:49 PM   #43
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Hi wood,
Exactly, when i drive down to pick up my rig i go right by Sacramento camping world so i plan on stopping there to grab some needed goodies including the pump converter winterizing kit that 2Air mentioned above. Thern when i arrive at the dealer then they can't say "well we don't have a kit"..... . Hopefully they know how to do it ??? cauz they are in San Diego,CA (Revolution RV) area where it never freezes
Fred
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:00 PM   #44
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I also plan on talking to the AS dealer that is nearest my house - in Reno,NV (Mountain Family Rv) as everyone must winterize up here, and see what their winterizing process is. They will end up being my service dealer , at least for warrenty issues, as i will be storing my rig in Reno.
Fred
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:39 PM   #45
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We are shopping for a retirement AS and this water pump thing keeps reminding me that I should be carefull what I buy. I have talked to three AS dealers about the water pump issue here in the Northwest. ALL of them say to winterize all they do is drain the fresh water tank and hot water tank and blow out the system and add the pink stuff to the traps and toilet. NOTHING ELSE. It can get to 20 below zero here. I recently visited a dealer that if I buy as AS it will be from this dealer (name withheld here for obvious reasons). They are very nice people but I repeatedly ask them to show me where the water pump was and I got the same reply each time. ITS IN THERE SOMEWHERE and an immidiate change of subject after they told me winterizing is just draining the tanks, blowing out lines and adding the pink stuff to the traps. It would be so simple to mount the water pump with an OUTSIDE access door to you could mearly open the door and turn the appropiate valves to "winterize" and pump some pink stuff through the system. I would give up a bit of closet space for this convienence. My neighbor has a LANCE 1181 CAMPER on the back of his truck. Winterizing takes him all of 10 minutes and HE never has to get on his hands and knees. And he never has to blow out anything. Opens the door....after the tanks have drained of course....turns the winterizing bypass valvues to "winterize". The unit comes with a hose attached from the factory and you stick that hose in a gallon or two of the pink stuff and turn on the waterpump and wait for pink stuff to come out the faucets in the sinks and presto...YOU winterized....nothing to it.....ARE YOU LISTENING AIRSTREAM???????
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:41 PM   #46
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Well now that i think about it maybe we are making a mountain out of a molehill !!!
In my Pilgrim camper that i used for over 20 years, the heater did not work properly.Because of this my lines and system probably frooze at least over a hundred times. The only problem i ever had was the shure-flow pump was damaged and needed replacing, think i did it only twice. All i ever did was pump the system dry , then disconnect the tank line and drain it into a bucket as it was higher lower than the system drain valve(stupid location). I never used the antifreeze stuff,ever. Now i didn't have a water heater, but i don't think that mattered. When you pump the system dry, there is very little pressure left in the lines. All the water lines in my camper were this clear flex tube which by nature flexes hence no leaks, after freezing/thawing. I live at 6,300 elevation and have had freezing problems with my house pipes now and then. However its only with copper lines that are under pressure, which can crack easily when freeze expansion takes place. I actually wished the AS didn't have copper piping, but i really think that their would not be enough pressure to form freezing cracks. WHO has had freezing problems in their rig??, and where ? Seems to me that if we drain everything as we are supposed to and blow out the lines then that should work. Then adding the pink stuff to traps would be the only issue.
Fred
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:07 PM   #47
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if that's the case, why does AS make such a big production out of telling us how to ADD anti freeze in the winterizing "section"?????
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:58 PM   #48
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actually the a/s owner's manuals for most of the newer units focuses on...

drain tanks, drain heater, drain lines (low water valves) and blow the lines.

with a/f in the traps, bowl.

a/f is for those that like double redundant protection, don't have access to air pressure or low water valves...

and for older units with copper or greatly revised water lines...

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:33 PM   #49
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My 2008 Safari manual said to suck antifreeze through the water lines via the largely inaccessible water pump, but talk to an A/S factory tech and he'll tell you to just blow the lines out and add antifreeze to the traps. The manual seems to be updated sporadically and incompletely and that wasn't the only thing I found in it that was outdated or so badly written it reminded me of older manuals for electronic products from Japan.

Gene

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Old 12-28-2007, 10:44 PM   #50
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Fred,
Although your AS dealer is in Santee, the service folks are up the hill a few thousand feet in Ramona where the do get an occasional freeze. The new service guys are pretty good and AS trained but check on any parts they may need.
We've been freezing every night for about a month now but I only used the fill drains with anti-freeze, air flush all lines, drain water tank and heater, and leave the drains and valves open when winterizing, no problems.
I have to agree, the pump is not that easy to get to. Thanks to the forum, I found the second door access for inspection.
Good luck on your new rig.
Stream Safe-
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:43 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
actually the a/s owner's manuals for most of the newer units focuses on...

drain tanks, drain heater, drain lines (low water valves) and blow the lines.

with a/f in the traps, bowl.

a/f is for those that like double redundant protection, don't have access to air pressure or low water valves...

and for older units with copper or greatly revised water lines...

cheers
2air'
2air left out an important step that is listed in my 2007 Airstream manual.

7. Disconnect the water pump inlet connection and turn the pump on until all the water is expelled. This water, about 1/2 cup, can be caught in a towel or rag.

2air is correct about pumping Antifreeze being an optional step. My 2007 Airstream manual states:

For additional winterizing protection add a non-toxic antifreeze to the water lines ...

In my opinion, if you have to disconnect the inlet pipe to the water pump whether you use antifreeze or not, you've done the hard part; you might just as well pump the antifreeze for the added protection.
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:48 PM   #52
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good catch hiker

and that's a step NOT to be missed.

i skipped over step 7, 2 winters past,

and developed a leak in the pre pump sediment screen.

i'm sure it was from the 1/2 cup residual water...

which froze solid, then drained out the cracked screen cup.

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-29-2007, 02:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasafari
if that's the case, why does AS make such a big production out of telling us how to ADD anti freeze in the winterizing "section"?????
Wasa, This should be obvious to you. AS makes a big deal out of things for only one reason - to cover their rear end !!! Therefore they will include every procedure about winterizing under the sun so they have no responsibility later on. When i picked up my goodie bag (manual,etc) i thought wow there are heaps of stuff on the operation of my AS - cool! . Well guess what ,3/4 of the stuff had to do with Safety issues including a safety VHS tape, that really irritated me but showed me where they were coming from !!.

The whole problem seems to stem around water pump issues. Hiker is correct in my manual is also step 7,also along with step 6: "remove exhaust hose from water pump". I assume this is where the 1/2 cup or so of water comes out when you turn the pump back on (not the disconnected inlet side)
as the inlet side is sucking only air. I think this is a ? to be directed to the pump mfgr. as they probable have done testing , not AS.
It seems rather redundant that turning the pump back on (with hoses disconnected) would force water out , why does it not do this with the hoses connected,when the tank is empty ?. If when you disconnected the inlet or exhaust hose, then the water just drained out without the pump on , that would make more sense

2air, Actual Sediment build up in your pre pump sediment screen over a period of time , (heavier stuff will not flush all the way through)may have been the cause (preventing the water from draining thoroughly out of it,hence freezing it)and not necessarily draining the residual water from the pump per se.
When i had my camper i placed a sediment screen between my pump and tank to prevent stuff jamming the small shure-flow pump (it didn't have one)which it did once. I had to clean it out periodically.
Fred
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Old 12-29-2007, 02:42 PM   #54
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Thanks Fred. I think we are sort of losing the original issue of this thread, namely Allen "WoodedAreas" inability to access his water pump in order to accomplish the full winterizing procedure recommended by AS. As you can see in my photos in my second post, I was able to relocate mine and make it very easy to remove the sediment filter etc to suck the anti freeze in. Apparently on the new FBs you can't even get at the pump. kinda makes you wonder what if anything they were thinking when they designed that install. Say your sediment screen got plugged: now what are you going to do. You may be in Florida and not worried about winterizing but you still can't get at that pump. Good luck with that.
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Old 12-29-2007, 02:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfirebob
Fred,
Although your AS dealer is in Santee, the service folks are up the hill a few thousand feet in Ramona where the do get an occasional freeze. The new service guys are pretty good and AS trained but check on any parts they may need.
We've been freezing every night for about a month now but I only used the fill drains with anti-freeze, air flush all lines, drain water tank and heater, and leave the drains and valves open when winterizing, no problems.
I have to agree, the pump is not that easy to get to. Thanks to the forum, I found the second door access for inspection.
Good luck on your new rig.
Stream Safe-
Hey Bob how's it goin !
Ya, i went and sat down with the service manager Doug Cripe,in Ramona, when i purchased my rig. We talked about Hitches,PDI ,etc for around an hour. I feel real comfortable with him, he seems to be really on top of things (unlike sales dept).
If they can get the replacement parts required (they ordered on Dec 11) from AS soon ,then i can head back down and pick up my rig.

I really don't want to go through all this pump hassle issue , like moving it , shooting a/f through it, etc. So I'll just keep researching it until I'm satisfied one way or the other - for better or worse
Fred
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Old 12-29-2007, 03:31 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfishfred
...Actual Sediment build up in your pre pump sediment screen...may have been the cause...
it may have been the cause, but it wasn't.

cheers
2air'

and back on point, the pump location and positioning has been an issue for many of us on a variety of models...

noise, floor vibration, space for the a/f kit and so on.

the 34s have plenty of space under the closet in the wheel well area, where the pump lives.

but a/s didn't use flex lines into/out of the pump with the result being jack hammer sound effects....

mine were replaced with braided steel flex lines and the pump was rotated.

these modifications greatly reduced the noise and floor vibration.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:50 PM   #57
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Fred,
Note Hiker's point on the line disconnect for the pump to drain it. I did that as well and access was not that bad. I do plan on making an access panel as described by some in the closet, and yeah, it a noisy unit...
Good luck again and yes, Doug is getting it done up there.
We're off to AZ in the morning, see ya sometime.
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Old 12-30-2007, 11:46 AM   #58
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Bob,
Ya i caught hikers point, am going to let Doug do his thing on winterizing the rig as it will be part of my PDI/final pick up. Will try and watch them do it to see if it coincides with manual.
Have a great time in AZ.
Fred
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:49 PM   #59
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Wouldn't pumping antifreeze through the pump from the fresh water tank force water out of the pump? The water would dilute the antifreeze, but a half cup out of a couple of gallons shouldn't be a big deal, should it?

I ordered the "pump converter winterizer kit" and will work on this problem in the spring. I'll have to move the pump so I can get to the filter so I can clean it in the future, add tubing, put some rubber pieces under the pump to reduce vibration traveling into the hard parts of the trailer, and will probably do a lot of cursing.

I am unsure how the tubing connects to the pump. There's a slide next to the inlet and outlet sides. Does that lock against the tubing providing a leak proof connection? Just pull it out or push it in and then lock or unlock the slide?

Gene
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
Wouldn't pumping antifreeze through the pump from the fresh water tank force water out of the pump? The water would dilute the antifreeze, but a half cup out of a couple of gallons shouldn't be a big deal, should it?


Gene
Hey gene,
If you read some of the prior posts what you wll find is that most everyone does not place antifreeze into the fresh water tank as it takes many tank refils to flush it all out. Our AS manual does not say to do it.

Since my last post i have talked to AS hq. customer service and my local AS service dept in Reno,NV and this is what they said about winterizing.

Neither of them disconnect inlet or outlet hoses from the pump, when they winterize rigs. After the water tank is empty(pumped/drained) they just run the pump again to purge out the remaining water through the pump. Then AS hq. just blows out the lines through the city water connection using 60psi,with all fixtures open. My local dealer does not use air but instead pumps antifreeze through the city water connection (same fashion) until it reaches all plumb fixtures. Because their is some type of gate on the outlet side of the pump, then air or antifreeze cannot be forced back into the pump.

Thats it in a nutshell so far. So what am i going to do, when i pick up my unit ? ( in about a week ) Well I'll see what my pick up dealer also suggests but probably go with just blowing out the lines as AS hq. suggested. Frankly i would rather have a quiter Sure-flow pump than the Aquajet pump,so if it freezes thats OK !!!
Fred
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