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rwnash · 03-28-2008, 07:30 AM

Todd,

This thread seems to be moving right along; not sure that I have a whole lot more to offer.

PEX is the latest version of plastic pipe tubing. I think that it is what is currently being used in new travel trailers and homes. Less expensive and more flexible than copper - but some styles of fittings are a bit pricey. I used "crimp" fittings which are the cheaper way to go - but you get to buy an expensive tool to install them. (There were a few places where it was difficult to get the tool into location to use it.) There are a few threads dealin with this topic. My 75 unit has copper while the 86 had polybutylene which is "close" to the same size as PEX but required a hard to find adapter to make the transition.

One disadvantage of a 10 gallon unit: 30 plus pound heavier. I was thinking about a "tankless" unit - if I were doing an extensive rehab I probably would have gone that way. (I have become a bit compulsive about weight - the newer trailer is about 1200 lbs heavier without much more capability.)

Finally, the bypass makes it easier to winterize if you use antifreeze. I did ONCE - took forever to get the taste out of the water. I now use an air compressor to blow out the lines after letting them drain. For the last trip of the season I dump the holding tanks and open the drains and drive home with a jug of drinking water. The road action helps get all the water out and it does not take too long to blow everything down.

Good luck with the project.

Whit Nash

raebaker06 · 03-28-2008, 08:38 AM

I replaced my 6 gallon tank and found it just fine. I did the by pastt at the tank using ordinary pipe and water taps think about it a tape to shut off the water tank . I would be interested in an electrical ignition unit if any one has the info.

Rae Baker

monocoque · 03-28-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwnash

Todd,

This thread seems to be moving right along; not sure that I have a whole lot more to offer.

PEX is the latest version of plastic pipe tubing. I think that it is what is currently being used in new travel trailers and homes. Less expensive and more flexible than copper - but some styles of fittings are a bit pricey. I used "crimp" fittings which are the cheaper way to go - but you get to buy an expensive tool to install them. (There were a few places where it was difficult to get the tool into location to use it.) There are a few threads dealin with this topic. My 75 unit has copper while the 86 had polybutylene which is "close" to the same size as PEX but required a hard to find adapter to make the transition.

One disadvantage of a 10 gallon unit: 30 plus pound heavier. I was thinking about a "tankless" unit - if I were doing an extensive rehab I probably would have gone that way. (I have become a bit compulsive about weight - the newer trailer is about 1200 lbs heavier without much more capability.)

Finally, the bypass makes it easier to winterize if you use antifreeze. I did ONCE - took forever to get the taste out of the water. I now use an air compressor to blow out the lines after letting them drain. For the last trip of the season I dump the holding tanks and open the drains and drive home with a jug of drinking water. The road action helps get all the water out and it does not take too long to blow everything down.

Good luck with the project.

Whit Nash

Whit,

Based on your description it sounds as though I would want to replace all the copper with PEX. I was wondering whether to reuse the copper I removed. I ended up with a few pinches in the tubing during the process of removal. I'll look for the other threads and check at the local Lowes and H. Depot for more info on PEX.

What is a tankless water heater? Haven't heard of them. Sounds great. I agree with you about weight. I'm in the process of replacing the frame on this trailer and keeping the size/weight of the replacement steel down has been a factor. I'd like to consider the options if I can shave weight with tankless heater.

As for antifreeze I don't think I would use it but the bypass sounds as if it makes it much easier to drain the system.

maccamper · 03-28-2008, 03:43 PM

I think you will have an easy time finding opinions on copper and pex by looking in the plumbing threads, there seem to be valid viewpoints each way.

I suggest that when you are making that decision, allow yourself to factor in your comfort level in working with the two systems. In my case, I have sweated copper joints for years and had good success with it. Given that most of the plumbing joints in a trailer are hard to get to, at best, if there is a problem, I really did not want to be on the steep end of the learning curve with a material totally new to me.

This is our first trailer, and since I had to Full Monte the back end, there were already plenty of things I was doing outside my comfort zone. We live in a very small city and finding knowledgeable people in the Lowe's and HD's is nearly impossible. You may have much better resources for products and advice in your area.

PEX and copper are both good systems IF good quality materials and good workmanship are used. Get all the advice you can from experienced people in making your decision, but then also factor in what you feel more comfortable installing and won't worry about after you put everything back together.

There are plenty of folks in the forum who will suggest that you spend the time and money to do it right the first time, and I think that's wise, whichever system you choose.

To answer your other question, a tankless water heater is similar to one of those instant hot water taps you sometimes see in office kitchens. There is no storage tank, just a big burner that heats up the water as it's used. They are expensive (about $800 to $900 or so) and use a fair amount of propane. Hopefully someone will share their experience with them in the Forum.

Laird

monocoque · 03-28-2008, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccamper

I think you will have an easy time finding opinions on copper and pex by looking in the plumbing threads, there seem to be valid viewpoints each way.

I suggest that when you are making that decision, allow yourself to factor in your comfort level in working with the two systems. In my case, I have sweated copper joints for years and had good success with it. Given that most of the plumbing joints in a trailer are hard to get to, at best, if there is a problem, I really did not want to be on the steep end of the learning curve with a material totally new to me.

This is our first trailer, and since I had to Full Monte the back end, there were already plenty of things I was doing outside my comfort zone. We live in a very small city and finding knowledgeable people in the Lowe's and HD's is nearly impossible. You may have much better resources for products and advice in your area.

PEX and copper are both good systems IF good quality materials and good workmanship are used. Get all the advice you can from experienced people in making your decision, but then also factor in what you feel more comfortable installing and won't worry about after you put everything back together.

There are plenty of folks in the forum who will suggest that you spend the time and money to do it right the first time, and I think that's wise, whichever system you choose.

To answer your other question, a tankless water heater is similar to one of those instant hot water taps you sometimes see in office kitchens. There is no storage tank, just a big burner that heats up the water as it's used. They are expensive (about $800 to $900 or so) and use a fair amount of propane. Hopefully someone will share their experience with them in the Forum.

Laird

I spent a small amount of time browsing on-line one of these on-demand tankless systems. According to one site one model has a fuel consumption of 940 gallons of hot water per LPG tank versus a tank type which uses 740 gallons of hot water per LPG tank. Fuel consumption is 2.55 lbs per hour at maximum input. ( At 2 GPM of water, 20 lbs of propane will produce over 940 gallons of hot water). The tankless version is much lighter 27.5 versus 110 pounds when full. Interesting. Is anyone here using one?

1974Nate · 03-29-2008, 12:25 AM

I decided to save a little money and installed this one a few days ago. A pretty good deal. It was relatively easy. I reused the original fittings and it intruded a little on my toilet because I had to add a riser to the lower intake port because of the electric heater box. I like your flex attachments because it would clean up the pipe layout a bit. I would really prefer to switch the whole system to PEX. I probably have more flex tubing and pipe clamps than original copper at this point.
I did talk to a plumber at HD and he suggested the crimping, and was not that happy with the compression fittings. It would seem so much easier to replace sections using the comp fittings. Has anyone had any bad experiences with them?

monocoque · 03-29-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1974Nate

I decided to save a little money and installed this one a few days ago. A pretty good deal. It was relatively easy. I reused the original fittings and it intruded a little on my toilet because I had to add a riser to the lower intake port because of the electric heater box. I like your flex attachments because it would clean up the pipe layout a bit. I would really prefer to switch the whole system to PEX. I probably have more flex tubing and pipe clamps than original copper at this point.
I did talk to a plumber at HD and he suggested the crimping, and was not that happy with the compression fittings. It would seem so much easier to replace sections using the comp fittings. Has anyone had any bad experiences with them?

This looks like the same unit we were discussing earlier in the thread and has the same cut-out dimensions. I went out and measured the exterior shell cut-out dimensions that exist on my trailer for the old Bowen. They are: 16-1/2" wide, 16" high, 19-3/4" inches deep. So the new Atwood is about 2 inches deeper (rather than shorter as I had calculated in post #15)! Did you take any photos of the process?

cameront120 · 03-30-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monocoque

I spent a small amount of time browsing on-line one of these on-demand tankless systems. According to one site one model has a fuel consumption of 940 gallons of hot water per LPG tank versus a tank type which uses 740 gallons of hot water per LPG tank. Fuel consumption is 2.55 lbs per hour at maximum input. ( At 2 GPM of water, 20 lbs of propane will produce over 940 gallons of hot water). The tankless version is much lighter 27.5 versus 110 pounds when full. Interesting. Is anyone here using one?

Send a message to Lewster, he uses one and is a wealth of information on the RV500. I am also looking at installing one in my Tradewind.

rwnash · 03-30-2008, 03:49 PM

Tood,

Was gone for the weekend or would have responded sooner.

If your plumbing is sound (and copper is pretty durable) I would probably only replace what I had to. Every job is different, I like to use as few fittings and adapters as I can - every extra joint is an opportunity to go bad. I also typically reuse copper that comes out of a repair job elsewhere. Sweating copper in a trailer makes me a little nervous - I'd plan any transition to PEX where I could safely heat the transition fitting.

Lew Faber(?) "Lewster" posts fairly frequently on this site. He does RV repair in Florida (Marco Island I think). He knows his stuff and I think he prefers the "non-crimp" Pex fittings. He installed the RV-500 tankless in his new trailer - I bought his old one when I needed a quick and less expensive replacement. His recommendation is one reason I'd consider it.

The snow is finally starting to go away - time to think about new axles!

Whit Nash

monocoque · 03-30-2008, 07:13 PM

I'm not sure which way to go yet. On-demand/tankless or conventional? Copper or PEX? I'm thinking seriously about going tankless and with PEX. Tankless certainly sounds a lot more efficient and virtually endless hot water. What's not to like aside from the expense? What do you suppose to be the down sides of PEX?

Ganglin · 03-30-2008, 07:33 PM

Todd - I really have no opinion of PEX one way or the other but I did find this and thought you should at least see it....

PerPEXing Problem - TOH Discussions

monocoque · 03-30-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ganglin

Todd - I really have no opinion of PEX one way or the other but I did find this and thought you should at least see it....

PerPEXing Problem - TOH Discussions

Interesting discussion. "PEX when manufactured using the t-butyl peroxide method of production... causes a gasoline taste and leaches chemicals into the water...including the steam from these pipes during showering..." Also the mention of the ease of rodents gnawing through the material. Hmmmm...

overlander63 · 03-30-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cameront120

Gary, can you please describe the bypass you mentioned? What is the purpose? Sorry, I'm not so bright when it comes to these sorts of things.

It is used for winterizing, or to isolate a leaking tank.

rwnash · 03-31-2008, 07:57 AM

Todd,

It is true that mice et al will/can chew PEX piping. However, I think that the problem is greatest when the pipe goes through a floor/wall and the rodent enlarges the hole by chewing the pipe out of it. (I don't think they are attracted to it; just using it as a path to where they want to be. As far as taste goes, I have not noticed any difference.

Bottom line: If installed properly either copper or PEX should do fine in my opinion - having one trailer each way. (I wish my ONLY problem was plumbing - then I would not have any!) I purchased my PEX / fittings 7 tool online; we live a bit out in the sticks and I let the UPS driver do my running around. Pex Supply.com I think. They are out east somewhere, reasonable prices as far as I can tell and fast shipping.

I suspect that by now you are thinking that too much information is not a good thing! Anyway, thats one reason I like this forum - you get a lot of real world experience and things to think about.

Whit Nash

maccamper · 03-31-2008, 11:28 AM

Todd, this will not necessarily apply to your situation, but tankless water heaters do have one limitation. For a given burner size and flow rate, they can only increase the heat of the water by a certain number of degrees.

For example, a heater might be rated for 3 gpm and 55 degrees (arbitrary numbers). In South Texas during July, the supply water coming from the campgound supply system might be 75 degrees. The heater could produce a maximum water temperature of 130 degrees at 3 gpm. If you were camping in North Dakota during January, the supply water might be 35 degrees and the maximum water temperature would be 90 degrees at 3 gpm.

Slower flow rates would enable the heater to put out warmer water, but the difference would vary by manufacturer. Just something to keep in mind if you are going to do any Winter camping up North.

Laird

ALANSD · 05-11-2008, 09:56 AM

I am working on pulling the old leaky Atwood out of my 80 Excella. I have drilled out the rivets, disconnected the two inside water lines.
Not sure about the gas line. It has a shut off valve below the trailer under where the heater is mounted . When I turn the fitting that connects it , the whole line turns.I tried holding the fitting on the opposite side of the valve.
I do have this line off at the heater connection inside the door, but it does not seem like it would push thru the hole in the bottom to free the heater.
Also the heater unit itself is not budging at all out of its hole. What am I missing? Thanks

monocoque · 05-11-2008, 12:29 PM

Attachment 60263

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALANSD

I am working on pulling the old leaky Atwood out of my 80 Excella. I have drilled out the rivets, disconnected the two inside water lines.
Not sure about the gas line. It has a shut off valve below the trailer under where the heater is mounted . When I turn the fitting that connects it , the whole line turns.I tried holding the fitting on the opposite side of the valve.
I do have this line off at the heater connection inside the door, but it does not seem like it would push thru the hole in the bottom to free the heater.
Also the heater unit itself is not budging at all out of its hole. What am I missing? Thanks

If you have disconnected the propane line from the tank inside the trailer and disconnected the line from the valve outside the trailer you should be able to remove the propane line from the floor through the hole in the floor. You might have to remove some caulking from the hole in floor. Do you have the banana wrap off below the heater?

If you have disconnected the water lines and removed the rivets or screws there isn't much else holding the tank in place. See the photos in post 9 of this thread. At least there wasn't on my heater. The flange that rivets or screws to the exterior skin is caulked very well so that may be sticking. See photo below. Try using a putty knife to break the seal but be careful you don't scratch the aluminum. I was able to "walk" my heater out gradually inching it side-to-side.

As I recall a little prying from the inside helps. But don't over do it until you're absolutely sure everything securing, holding or connecting the unit has been removed. Mine was in there pretty tight and there wasn't too much wiggle room. Don't force anything. Good luck!

easyride · 05-11-2008, 01:39 PM

Pex Is The Way To Go Whenever Freezing Maybe A Problem,i Have 2 Overlanders And A Spartanette In Pex,also My Summer House In Ohio.when I`m Ready To Return To Fl. I Shut Off Water, Drain Water Heater,open Main Drain & And Open All Faucets,what Water Is Left In Lines Will Freeze,but Won`t Burst Pipes.after 30 Years Plumbing,it`s The Best I`ve Found For Cold Areas. Dave

ALANSD · 05-11-2008, 03:51 PM

The line from my gas tank runs under the trailer and up hru a shut off valve into the heater. Seems like it would not fit thru the hole in the water heater as the fitting is too big. As for the heater itself there must be a rivet or something still holding it as it does not want to slide out yet.

monocoque · 05-11-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALANSD

The line from my gas tank runs under the trailer and up hru a shut off valve into the heater. Seems like it would not fit thru the hole in the water heater as the fitting is too big. As for the heater itself there must be a rivet or something still holding it as it does not want to slide out yet.

The description you provide sounds exactly like the way my Ambassador was set-up. As I recall the flange around the opening was held to the exterior skin by screws. I don't remember drilling out rivets. Remove the propane line first. You might need to remove the fittings if the hole in the floor is too small.

It's a tight fit around the opening and the skin and the tank will be heavy if it's still full of water. Be very careful not to bend anything too much but you might be able to get a screwdriver between the lower flange and the floor. With a little leverage from below you should be able to get it moving back and forth.