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Old 03-07-2019, 03:17 PM   #1
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1984 34.5' Airstream 345
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Anyone done a Solar Water Heating system?

The GF told me a long time ago that 6g of hot water is not enough...
I always have the last word on these things...
Yes Dear!


The idea has been swirling in my mind for a long time on how to increase the total hot water capacity, and this is my theoretical plan.


1/ Complete a hot water return line/loop, and insulate all the hot water pipes(Repiping with Pex currently). My guess is that this will increase the total hot water capacity, AND speed hot water arrival at the facet/shower, therefor not wasting water OR hot water.

2/ Add a solar powered hot water circulation pump.
3/ Build a solar water heater for the roof. Freezing is not an issue in CA, so circulating the water from the water tank, up to the heater, then into the normal hot water heater, should also speed heating and recovery time.

4/ Maybe upgrade to the 10g water heater, with the "Motor Assist" option. I have a Motorhome, so I could use the heat exchanger with engine coolant, or it could be used with a Glycol mix in an isolated system for colder climates.



Anyone done/tried this?


To start, I picked up 50' of 1/4" copper tube for the solar heater...
Thinking a variation of this DIY build, but with an aluminum frame, mounted on the roof.


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Old 03-08-2019, 02:21 PM   #2
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Yes...🤔

I've filled an inner tube and put it on the roof of the TV...if that counts. 👍

Bob
🇺🇸
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:49 PM   #3
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Absolutely!
And I've used one of those Black Camping Shower bags that Ive left on the roof of my truck for a few hours and been unable to use because it been too hot!
That, is how I know it works... now to make a system...
There is another way to do it, and that's to use a 12v water heating element in your standard water heater and use the solar panels/batteries to fuel it....
But I was thinking to maximize my solar produced electricity for other things.

These guys make very nice Solar water heating kits too...

http://www.heliatos.com/
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:33 PM   #4
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While I've not tried it yet, my Avenue has the capability of running the 6gal. Suburban on 120v and propane simultaneously for quicker recovery.

It would seen that should give 20gph recovery (@70 degrees) according to Suburban stats below. Can AS trailers do this?
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:45 PM   #5
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Do you use propane in your rig? We have a Girard heat-on-demand with 12V ignition. While it's always "on" it doesn't use much energy until someone turns on the hot water. Kichen & Bath are right next to each other, so the hot water doesn't travel very far any way. If we replace it at some point, it would probably be with the Truma Aqua-Go.

The hubby dreams of boon-docking all the time. (He's somewhat anti-social) He's been participating in the solar & lithium forums for a while. We currently have 4 lithium batteries for 400 Ah, along with the other goodies for running solar. Passive solar hot water might occur to him at some point, but I keep encouraging him to keep stuff on the roof to a minimum. He's a disabled veteran with a back injury & doesn't need anymore opportunities to make it worse. Passive solar on the roof is going to mean trips up/down the ladder to refill a tank. Plus, water is heavy. How large a water storage system will your roof be able to support? There are some pretty nifty portable heat-on-demand hot water heaters that probably work with a 20 lb. exchangeable tank, if you don't want to use propane anywhere else in your rig.
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Old 03-08-2019, 07:31 PM   #6
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We are in a trailer and not a motor home, so our situation may be different.

Our 6 gallon propane and electric water heater can provide sufficient tho water for almost 10 minutes of showering. The shower isn’t very high flow, the water is almost boiling hot to start, and propane combined with the electric element can reheat pretty quickly. I guess that’s how it makes long showers work.

You could put a solar panel on the roof (I’m a huge fan of solar - 1000 watts on our airstream, 10.5kw on our house, and a crud-ton of hydronic solar heating at the house for floors, pool and domestic hot water. But I don’t think it’s such a great idea. It’s complicated, heavy, creates multiple roof penetrations and not sue it will do a lot of good. When it’s hot and sunny outside, you don’t need propane so you could just burn propane BTUs to make hot water. If it’s cold or overcast you wouldn’t generate much, if any, solar water heat anyway.

If I WERE to do a solar water heater I’d probably look at pool systems that are typically flexible black rubber mats with lots of channels for the water. I had these at my hombre before going with a more complicated system, but the rubber mats were very very efficient, extremely simple, lighter weight, and could conform to a roof that isn’t flat.

But don’t forget the pumps and temperature sensors and back flow valves, etc that will be necessary.

Good luck and keep us posted!
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:28 PM   #7
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There will be no water storage on the roof.

To clarify, what is peculating in my mind.

On my Motorhome, the water heater is on the street side.

Right behind it is the refrigerator.

Refrigerator vent is a common path for solar wiring, which I might do too, so I may well run a feed and return water pipe up there at the same time.

Solar water heating panel will be Aluminum framed, with black painted, copper heat exchanger. Insulated on the underside, and covered with twin wall poly above. The area I feel is best for it, is on the center, under the TV antenna, where PV panels would not like to be, due to the slight shading.

I have already modified the fresh water storage tank, which is mounted under the street side rear queen bed.
These were originally an 80 gallon tank(min was MIA), to a dual 20g/70g tank. 20g is for driving, but opening a manual valve allows both to fill for boondocking situations.

Stock pump will pressurize system as normal, but just in front of the stock 6g water heater, I will add a some plumbing.
A non return valve, to stop hot water backing up into the cold system.
Then a Y where the hot water return loop will come in.
Then a small 12v pump, to circulate the hot water thru the system. The pump may have to be on the return leg of the Y.

That is where the diverter valves will be, to send water up to the Solar Water heater, or not, or even not to be on at all, so the system functions exactly as stock.


If the solar water heater is to be used, the 12v circulation pump is energized, sending water from the hot system up to the panel, to be heated, before it enters the HWH.... where, it can be heated more if needed.
Based on what I read, I could be introducing 170f water to the HWH at this point.

The hot water then circulates back along the motorhome curbside to the bathroom sink, on, around the back of the motorhome(25' of pipe:P), to the shower on the Curbside, then on to the Kitchen sink... before returning to my Y just before the pump.
There maybe changes in the details, but that's what I see in my mind.
As the HWH has a pressure relief valve built in, any excess pressure or heat expansion is vented, without mods.

There is the option, to isolate the solar heater, and circulate glycol mix, and pump that thru the "Motor Assist" loop on the HWH.


The logic would be that this is "Free" Hot water... No 120v, no Propane, and with solar panels already pumping into the batteries, the 12v circlating pump using maybe 1a, its nothing.
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Old 03-09-2019, 05:51 PM   #8
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I have 11.5 KW of PV (42 panels) on my house roof and a large AET Solar thermal panel for my hot water system with an 80 gal tank in my garage. Solar thermal is certainly efficient, and operates well at sub par Solar PV levels. It's surprising how much heat still accumulates even in overcast conditions. That said, I don't find solar to be especially useful for camping, with all the usual caveats concerning suboptimal orientation and shading. I don't have panels on my trailer. Still, Solar thermal remain an interest of mine. Bang for buck, I think you get the best return on your investment. But storage is the real bugaboo.

Don't think you want that kind of tank in your trailer. But these portable Sack systems are interesting. And if you have a pickup, putting something on a tonneau cover makes some sense, especially since you can orient it to the sun easier (and my cover gets really hot in the sun.) You would still need a pump system, and preferably a temp differential control system, one of which I have from my home system.

The pumps (one to push water to the panel, and one to circulate water from the tank to the exchanger) draw about 250 watts, which would draw down trailer batteries pretty quickly. But those are things you can possibly re-engineer. For example a solar preheater using off the shelf components (RV style black bag) that then feeds the standard AS hot water heater. That would greatly reduce your propane or even electric loads. Watching this thread to see how you do!
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:32 PM   #9
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Good info.


The pump I had in mind is this one...
Draws between 500ma and 1 amp, can pump to a head of 3m, or 15', max fluid temp is 212F, and can pump up to 1.5g/min.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...DR1F4G63KKBJVA
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Old 03-10-2019, 12:40 PM   #10
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I'm just double-checking that your main camping goal is doing a lot of boon-docking. Having "passive" water heating capability isn't a bad thing, as far as managing all your energy resources is concerned. But how many gallons of water are you realistically going to be able to bring with you, & waste you must take back out?

Sure, you can increase the gallon capacity of tanks, if they fit in the space, or use other means to bring more water. Extra water means extra weight tho. How nice are the roads which will take your to your dream camp site? What other items are you & your boo willing to leave at home if a longer shower is more important? Boon-docking is only enjoyable for both parties if each of you have a conservation mindset & agree up front where you're willing to make compromises.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:45 PM   #11
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The Motorhome is a different beast to the trailer... my GF said she wants to be sitting back, with a glass of wine in her hand, while we cruise.
I have no intention of paying for full hookup when I don’t need it. Equally, I want to be able to use any option I choose. Or anything in between.
My GF and I recently passed thru Quartzsite, and she looked at the rigs parked out in the sticks, and the ones parked like dominos and she made it clear which she preferred.
This is our retirement rig, and it’s been a long time getting on top of its issues, so as I go thru each system, I build in options and upgrades.
A good example is batteries. I cut out and welded a new tray together to be able to carry up to 8x 6v golf cart batteries. Weight will be eliminated to balance that, and the 350lb onboard Kohler generator is in my sights, replaced with a newer lighter unit or 2.
As stated, on the water front, I have the ability to drive around with a full 20g tank, which is enough for traveling, therefore saving me around 600lb of water weight or it sloshing around.
If I am boondocking, for an extended period, I would fill the 70 gallon tank on arrival. I very much doubt I would drive far with the full 90g onboard. No need.
Our motorhomes had 25/45 of black/grey storage as standard.
I am adding an outdoor shower for people and dogs too.
So, the game plan is total flexibility.
I have a 125lb Propane tank, and 80 gallon fuel tank. I have a 5.9 Cummins in prep to replace the 454, and a 4 speed OD trans, so may convert the gender to propane rather than run a heavy diesel gender.
Lots of plans in motion, and it’s all on my main thread.
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Old 03-10-2019, 04:45 PM   #12
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A tankless propane water heater will give unlimited hot water. Solar hot water heaters are only just "OK" on a house with a huge surface area, in a sunny location.
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Old 03-10-2019, 07:49 PM   #13
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I very likely have an entirely different upbringing & notions of practically than your GF. There is nothing wrong with that. The following is wordy (my apologies), but sums up my life view & experiences.

It may seem a bit off topic on this thread, but my husband tried to convince me that a fancy solar system would make it more enjoyable to do “free” camping. (One of the definitions of boon-docking). Really? If you invest a lot time & resources to bring the comforts of home to your off-grid wilderness experience, it’ not really free camping anymore. Want to escape civilization? Why are you trying to bring it with you then? I agreed to the man’s “boon-docking” solar project because it could actually be useful if there is a true emergency somewhere (natural disaster; large scale power-outage), and it gave him something else to think about other than the issues which affect him as a disabled veteran.

Personally, I think the military ruined a perfectly good Eagle Scout. Though the two of us didn’t grow up in the same state, we actually had some very similar experiences growing up. I belonged to a church youth group which participated in some backwoods camping. The badge program had both creative & practical honors to earn. Our church engaged a survival expert who taught both summer & winter survival. My family not only participated in both courses, we went to the summer survival boot camp. We went camping in the CO mtns. with a basic pop-up camper. Which stayed in the National Forest campgrounds (pit toilet only), while we took the old pick-up and bounced around on a bunch of scary-looking back roads. For some reason Hubs has it in his head I’m a pampered princess, maybe because I’m an artist who isn’t afraid to sprinkle some glitter on something occasionally. (Yes, there is even glitter in our trailer.) And he’s the analytical, left-brained musician & Navy SeaBee.

I get lectures about the KISS principal & knowing more about certain disciplines, like construction. But I’m not the one who wants to over-build everything. Or pack up everything in sight to make sure every possible contingency is covered. I thought getting an RV was about getting our butts out of the house, relaxing a bit & keeping the experience simple. With a few comforts of home, in a shiny aluminum cooking pot. (That part has nothing to do with sense or practicality, in any shape or form, & we’re both OK with that.) We’re dumb enough to travel with 7 animals. So there are already some logistical issues which have to be considered to keep them safe. Beyond that, I’m all about organization, efficiency & coming/going with a minimum of fuss.

Many historians agree the scariest military forces were the Mongols & Vikings. These supposedly less sophisticated folks put the fear of God in a “few” civilizations with a horde, some fast ponies & clever bows/arrows or a few well-armed men & some “tiny” boats which could travel just about anywhere. Now, while world powers are trying to convince their enemies “he who has the most toys wins” with all their high-tech goodies, they are still utilizing small, fast-strike groups who operate with a minimum of equipment. They call them Special Forces.
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Old 03-10-2019, 10:27 PM   #14
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Anyone done a Solar Water Heating system?

Norwegian descent, ex-Navy type and former Boy Scout Adult Leader. And yes, Eric the Red is traced ancestor on grandmothers side.

Raised three Eagle Scouts. Still live by the Scout motto, “Be Prepared”. That said, the most important wilderness survival tool is parked between your ears. Just need to use it. You can’t possibly carry everything you might need to be comfortable in the wilderness, but having food, water, adequate shelter and clothing is basic. Beyond that, it’s”glamping” and that’s optional.

That said, DW will never give up hot showers. So, we’re glamping as usual...
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:21 AM   #15
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This DW likes hot showers too. But we've had 4-5 years of drought (off-on from 2007, then really bad with water restrictions 2011-12.) There was Hurricane Ike in 2008 & 3 weeks of no electricity in an all electric house. Hurricane Harvey in 2017. We were actually on our way to the Black Hills in SD when the media suddenly realized it was turning into a monster. We knew there was nothing we could do here, so just kept going & came home 2 months later. We got lucky. Our house wasn't flooded. But the development is going gangbusters in our area with new concrete poured everytime we turn around. Each time there is a major storm which causes flooding, the water creaps closer. It's only a matter of time. It's not healthy to live in a constant state of fear, but it not a bad idea to practice just a bit of emergency preparedness & conservation with daily living. Not such a shock to the system then.

By the way, thank you for your service, sir. My husband was a Builder & CERTS team leader. Like many Vets, he had to fight for his benefits while he was trying to recover from a spinal cord injury. What I would like for him is find a balance between the two different types of SeaBee he was. A bit of balance would be healthier for both of us.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:19 AM   #16
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Um.... Scout here too.
Thank you for your families services to country as well.
I’ve lived and Workamped mobile for years, in all weathers across Europe.
Like this...
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So, let’s get back to the reason I started this thread.
Solar Hot Water Heating.
Seems like so far, nobody here has done it on an Airstream.

Let me reiterate.
I want free hot water, if I can.
I live in CA, and will be traveling, and staying in the west, most of the year. Some of that stays might be longer term. Might be months in fact, while we build a home. I don’t want to break camp, and drive the Motorhome to fill the onboard propane tank. Yes, I could go get portable tanks, but that’s not in my plan.
I don’t want to replace what I have yet, even tho it’s only a 6g, as it’s never been used more than twice.

If I can build a diy solar water panel that can output 170deg water like the one in the video, I’m in. If I fail to fully realize that goal, but if it supplements other energy usage, or speeds cycle times, why not?
I’m going for it!
To clarify, I’m pretty well equipped to do fabrication. Welders, sheet metal shear and brake, bead roller, welders, etc.
Saturday, I picked up a sheet of copper to use, maybe. 2’ x 3’ and 4.5lb.
My logic is that soldering the 1/4” tube to the copper sheet result in better heat transfer.
The balance will be between saving weight by using aluminum, vs copper.
I will be testing a couple of configurations soon.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:12 AM   #17
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Then, if you solder the tubing to the sheet copper, find a chemical blackening method to help absorb more heat. If you can mount this in a box with insulation on the bottom and glass on the top it will gather more heat.

Consider temperature control and freeze prevention as well as circulation.

I bet you can get a fair amount of boost out of a smallish panel but controlling the system output may take some creativity. As a computer geek, my thoughts turn to an Arduino controller with relays and temperature sensors and a convenient LCD touchscreen controller.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:32 AM   #18
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Awesome input!


Hadnt thought about chemical blackening agent... Planned to use simple Rustoleum high heat like I'd seen others use.


Something like this?
https://www.epi.com/black-oxide/copp...ltra-blak-420/


As for the control... I can only HOPE I have that problem!


Electronics is not my suite, but I know people who would probably trade that for a proven DIY solar water heating panel.


I also have an idea to boost heat collection transfer rate, I plan to try!


Will buy that pump, or similar, and see if I can do a real world test, with a 5 gallon bucket, panel, in a flat mounted position 8' above it. That should simulate the pump output, at that amount of head, temperature output etc. It would also allow me, via testing, to know if adding a tilting rack to the panel is worth the complication..
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:34 PM   #19
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My AS Motorhome has Shower Control head that requires you turn all the way 'on', meaning you're running full-bore hot water, then adding cold water, to adjust your water temperature to desired temp. I removed that control valve, found what I wanted at local Big Box store(the one where you can control water flow, as well as temp) then found a local Mom n Pop plumbing shop, where proprietor pointed out each and every single item I'd need to change over my piping to the different valve. Took some removal of panels in Master Closet, but overall, a simple change out.
Along with your supplemental Solar, I'd be willing to bet you'll have plenty of Hot Water. Believe DadsToy trucked along extra water behind him when he did Burning Man. Key, you're creative, betting there will always be enough water for GF.
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:35 PM   #20
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Thermostatic mixing valves mix the two water sources to a desired temperature setting. I have something similar but I don’t have a hot water heater yet so I haven’t fully tested it yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Grohtherm-2-H...573335241&th=1
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