First Trip & Grey Water Issue

[bike_addict]

Originally Posted by Tater

Well Ronnie, our FC 25' has a leaking fresh water tank.....Hopefully tomorrow you'll have your trailer back and enjoying it problem free.

That's no good. Hopefully it doesn't take too long for them to get it fixed up and you back on the road. I was told late yesterday that my trailer is fixed and ready to go. They said they tested it and it's draining good so we'll see.

Originally Posted by fmrcaptevil

Hi bike_addict, I ran the "test" today (pulled the plug on a full galley sink, with gray dump valve closed): sure enough, the air displaced by the surge of water into the gray tank exploded up through the shower drain, accompanied by a spray of water from the trap, requiring a small clean-up (definitely in the nuisance catagory, but certainly not as troubling as your situation).

That is definitely a nuisance. Have to keep a stopper in the shower to keep from having to clean it up. I'm curious to test mine out this weekend and see what happens.

[bike_addict]

Originally Posted by Westfalia

Ronnie, FWIW our 2008 27FB does the shower drain/fill/burp problem if you drain a full kitchen sink. Always has, just not to the same extent that you are having problems. Aren't you happy that you DON'T have a combined grey black tank???

I'm sorry to hear of your problems with the dealers. I gave up on my dealer and Airstream early on in the ownership process. At was constantly a matter of passing the buck on to the unsuspecting consumer. Everything that I asked to be repaired was half assed just enough to get me out the door. It is so sad that such new trailers have so many problems.

Still, be vigilant. This too shall pass and you will be back camping before you know it. If you ever end up out near Boerne, give me a holler.

It's definitely been frustrating. Turns out that quite a few of the models run into the same issue when you dump a full sink. It is a shame that there are always problems, I understand nothing is perfect but you'd like to think they would strive to reach that.

[Silver Goose]

Originally Posted by bike_addict

...I understand nothing is perfect but you'd like to think they would strive to reach that.

This wasn't a problem back when the tank was directly vented. I hate to think that Airstream made this design change to save the cost of 3' of PVC pipe and a pair of elbows! The unintended consequence is the cost of customer satisfaction and for those who complain during the warranty, the cost of installing a newfangled valve assembly.

Bike_Addict, I'm glad to see you're getting your trailer back in time for the weekend.

[Gene]

The problem is that when they made a change, they must not have tested it properly. Then when there are complaints, they don't know what to do. Doesn't someone talk to someone else who knows there was a change and that the change didn't work? Or did someone come up with a solution which might work, but they kept making trailers with the changed item without going back to the original way they were made?

Gene

[Goal15]

I wonder how far back this issue goes? My PO said that he just assumed it was because basically travel trailers have a "flat" plumbing system. So I will repeat my previous wondering.... I wonder if many of us who have this issue to one degree or another should look at some type of retrofit to deal with it

[bike_addict]

We'll find out how well the valve fixed the problem this weekend. I'll also get some pics of the install for everyone.

[Silver Goose]

Originally Posted by bike_addict

Does anyone know what a HPPVO valve is? ...

A better mousetrap? You decide...

http://www.hepvo.com/HepvoUSTechGuide.pdf

The HepvO valve was designed to replace the P-trap and addresses 3 concerns in the RV industry.

1) Loss of the water seal in the P-trap either from evaporation (infrequent use) or siphon action (often from the Venturi effect on the vent at highway speeds that puts a slight vacuum on the drain lines); the loss of the water seal allows tank odors to enter the coach.

2) Allows the RV manufacturer to design a lower shower floor since the vertical height required for the P-trap has been eliminated. The 1-way design of the valve prevents back flow into the shower.

3) When an HepvO is used, an air admittance valve is not needed which simplifies under sink construction and eliminates some PVC sections.

Those who have experienced a dry trap have simply added water and pressed on.

Those of us who top out above 6' might appreciate a few extra inches in the shower.

For some, the only indication of a full tank is when it starts to back up in the shower.

If the wife's earring gets washed down the sink, there's no trap to catch it; it's somewhere else!

In 30 years of RVing, I've yet to need to run a snake down a drain (that's a different story at home). If needed, you would have to remove the HepvO valve.

Bike_Addict, When you get your trailer back and figured out what they did, I'd be interested to know if they installed an HepvO to replace the trap under the sink presumably to reduce the inrush of water into the drain line. Or did they install it under the shower to prevent the back flow into the pan? Has the dealer said if they did anything else? How successful were their efforts? Does it make any difference if the tank is empty or more than half fill? I and others have observed the "geyser effect" in the shower when draining a full sink when the GW dump valve is closed, but the shower drains down within seconds. Now that I understand JC doesn't directly vent the tanks, I understand that behavior but I still don't understand why yours took so long to drain down

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by YankeeDoodle

Now that I understand JC doesn't directly vent the tanks, I understand that behavior but I still don't understand why yours took so long to drain down

If the PDF posted earlier is correct, I still see no way the water from the sink can get to the shower without going through the tank. The PDF shows the shower drain system as having its own tank fitting and as independent from the rest of the gray water plumbing. Assuming that the PDF is incorrect and the shower drain ties into the rest of the plumbing prior the entering the tank, one thing I think could cause a very slow dump is a malfunctioning (blocked closed) automatic vent (labeled 6 in the PDF).
One disadvantage I see to the HepvO valve is that it is a device with moving parts that can malfunction replacing a very simple device of pipes and fittings that is not likely to cause trouble.

Ken

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by w7ts

Looking at your PDF, I see no way any more water than what's in the shower drain trap (or perhaps more of the shower drain plumbing if some of it is sloping the wrong way) could end up in the shower unless the tip of the pipe into the tank from the shower drain (11M) was below the surface of the water in the tank. That brings up another entirely different possible cause. Keep in mind that I am only trying to explore the possibilities. I am not suggesting that you have any option other than to follow their path of trying to fix the problem.

Ken

I've come to this a bit late but have now had a chance to look at the PDF and I have to concur with Ken. The symptoms described will be caused by having the inlet pipe 11D below the level of water in the grey water tank, forcing water to be displaced rather than air when the galley sink is emptied.

Fitting a non-return valve in place of the existing shower p-trap will prevent the displaced water from venting into the shower tray but it won't solve the problem. The displaced water will simply sit in the pipes until the pressure in the tank is equalized, which it will be in time, just with the effects of gravity.

If I'm right in my viewing of the problem then it's not a design fault if the inlet pipe 11D does not protrude more than a short length into the tank. The longer the inlet pipe inside the tank, the sooner the problem will become apparent.

Of course, the valve proposal is by far the cheapest and easiest solution for Airstream to put into effect, and in reality it will probably be fine as a working fix.

[bike_addict]

My understanding from AS is that the shower and sinks piping join below what this drawing shows. But I don't have that schematic to confirm it.

And to my surprise they didn't replace the p-trap below the sink. They added the valve inline after the p-trap.

[bike_addict]

Well for those of you who weren’t at the rally this weekend the update on the trailer is simple: no change. They didn’t fix anything. The HepVo valve is useless in my situation. I don’t know how they can say they tested it, there is zero improvement in my grey tank drainage. They probably tested it hooked up to a dump station with the valve open.

Plain and simple it’s not venting. I talked to the guy at AS this morning that I’ve been going back and forth with and I think I got him on the same page with me. This is not due to a design flaw, this is a problem with my unit. I have a blockage somewhere.

But I’ve made the decision not to take it back to the same dealer for service. I just can’t handle dealing with them anymore. Not even going to call them. Based on some recommendations, I asked AS about Bob Jones RV Repair in south Houston and he knew the service manager’s name and spoke very highly of them. He said they’re not a dealer and not on the official list but that he works with them a lot and they are very good and he would have no problem authorizing them to do warranty work.

Talked to them this morning and the guy told me that unfortunately he is covered up in trailers that he has promised back by thanksgiving so he will be unable to take it until the Monday following (28th). At this point I’ll take that honesty instead of telling me he’ll squeeze it in and it not happening.

So I’m planning on getting by on my Thanksgiving weekend trip and getting it to them the following Monday. Hopefully they will treat me a lot better than the previous dealer. I’ll have my portable dump tank by the trip so I may just leave the grey valve open flowing into the portable tank and just keep an eye on it and dump it every once in awhile. At least then the tank will be open and it will vent so I won’t have water in my shower anymore.

[Gringo]

Man, I'm sure sorry to hear about all your problems. I have been having some similar things going on with our new one. Unresolved questions along the lines of what you describe, apparent high water levels in shower after pulling plug on a basin full of water in the galley.

In our case, the water does seem to drain down to normal in a few minutes. What would happen if you just pushed the rubber drain stopper into the shower floor tub? Would that keep the rising tide at bay?

there are expanding plugs for all kinds of applications, if that would do any good.

[Gene]

Ronnie,

The dealer may have installed it improperly or it may be a blockage of some sort. Anyway, best to go somewhere else where they don't play games with you. I hope this gets resolved soon and then others with the same problem will have some guidance.

Gene

[bike_addict]

Based on the diagrams it looks to be installed properly. But it just didn't make any difference in the situation. Didn't make it worse but didn't help.

[bike_addict]

Originally Posted by Gringo

Man, I'm sure sorry to hear about all your problems. I have been having some similar things going on with our new one. Unresolved questions along the lines of what you describe, apparent high water levels in shower after pulling plug on a basin full of water in the galley.

In our case, the water does seem to drain down to normal in a few minutes. What would happen if you just pushed the rubber drain stopper into the shower floor tub? Would that keep the rising tide at bay?

there are expanding plugs for all kinds of applications, if that would do any good.

What you're describing is more what the HepVo valve fix is expected to fix. A quick back up due to a high volume of water that recedes relatively quickly. It will slow the water flow down enough to prevent that.

I've just got a blockage somewhere, plain and simple.

[bike_addict]

Originally Posted by bukib

Quit being so anal retentive.

You know you're right. I hadn't considered the thought that this might be my fault. Call it what you will but I gotta stick with the fact that I refuse to accept such a glaring flaw with a brand new trailer.

You sure you're not the service writer from my dealer? Sounds about like their company policy.

Appreciate the input though. I'll keep that in mind.

[Goal15]

Bukib:

were you in Christmas Vacation? dumping your black tank down the storm sewer?

[Mr & Mrs S]

Originally Posted by bukib

I just do not understand this whole discussion. I have NEVER closed my grey water drain EVER. I mean, cmon, its sink and shower water. Totally fine for the world at large, Think about it...you are driving roads littered by dead dogs, racoons, possums and whatever and you think you have to carry gallons of purefied (think about dishwashing detergent) water around thereby wasting gas and putting more weight on your unit. Just open the valve and let it rip. Quit being so anal retentive.

Really....C'mon this man just bought a brand new trailer and its not working right. It has nothing to due with "letting it rip" as you put it.
If it were my unit I would want it working correctly also. I dont think your being fair by calling the man (whom you've never met) anal because he wants his trialer to perform as it should.

I bet if you just bought a new TV and it was blowing oil out the dip stick everytime you cranked it, you'd want it fixed too! Or is that being anal also?

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by bukib

I just do not understand this whole discussion.
.................................................. .......

.................................................. ..

.

Read it several more times slowly,

Then maybe you'll get it.

[Gene]

Grey water can contain all sorts of things better not dumped on the ground. If at an established campground, everyone dumps grey water, soon the area will be swampy, full of soap scum, bits of food (some of which may not be good for animals), grease, coffee grounds and so on. Would you dump this on your front lawn? Same thing.

Strangely enough, dumping something like sewage on the ground is the opposite of anal retentive.

Gene