Combining black and gray tanks?

[RickDavis]

Gray water in most places we camp kind of comes under "Don't ask, don't tell"

It is absurd to camp at Ohio state at a 2 week long horse show and see warning signs about gray water while hundreds of horses are leaving deposits or washing down the streets with other fluid discharges

[xrvr]

Ever seen a campground where gray water can be dumped freely? me neither, but I bet you could smell it! Too much food ,etc in there not to create a problem. jim

[eubank]

There are various laws governing the use of grey water. In NM and AZ, grey water can be used, but with quite a few restrictions. Among those restrictions, one particularly important for RVers is that grey water cannot be recycled if it comes from the kitchen sink.

These laws are written so that they do not apply where more local restrictions forbid its use. Hence, if, say, Albuquerque does not permit grey water recycling, then the statewide law is void.

Here is some more reading about grey water recycling:

Gray Water Policy Center


Lynn

[RickDavis]

At many of the rallies gray water on the ground has and even is still allowed and of course prior to 1973 or so when Oregon started this gray water thing no trailer had a gray tank. It just went in a bucket and watered the nearest tree. As long as it is not retained in a tank for a while there is not an odor problem and I have never noticed any problems at any of these places from gray water.

If you sniff the dish wash water in your sink there is no problem but they put ventilating fans in the bathroom for a reason

[zlee]

Originally Posted by RickDavis

As long as it is not retained in a tank for a while there is not an odor problem and I have never noticed any problems at any of these places from gray water.

And that's it right there. If you let even fresh water sit in an enclosed tank for a while, it'll start to stink, being full of all kinds of squirmy little life.

I doubt there'd be a problem if a few people dump fresh or even non-fresh grey water a few times. A busy campground having lots of RVs drop their grey water over the course of an entire year? how many gallons is that? I'd be starting to worry about the physical structure of the place eventually, much less worry about the acquifer once it hit some critical point.

I used to work for a hydrogeology company. The point is not, or should not be, "is this what's handy for me?" Yeah, one hiker leaving their garbage in the wilderness isn't going to hurt anything much, but twenty? Fifty? A hundred? How much garbage is allowed before it starts harming an environment, or even just the the enjoyment of that environment?

Believe me, you start tracking the plumes of things people dump on the ground and realize how far that stuff travels, and you stop believing in "just this once won't harm anything much."

[RickDavis]

while this is digressing slightly, the link Eubank posted is interesting. It appears much of this info on gray water systems is based on a home generating 400 gallons of gray water a day. Brings up the question of what the heck are they doing with it all? The 2 of us at home use approximately 2000 gallons a month for everything. That is 66 gallons a day for 2 people and a good percentage of that goes down the toilet so it would not go in a gray water system.
Our camping water usage bondocking is around 5 gallons a day. possibly a bit more with a water hookup.
No wonder I keep hearing about domestic water shortages.

[Foiled Again]

Originally Posted by zlee

And that's it right there. If you let even fresh water sit in an enclosed tank for a while, it'll start to stink, being full of all kinds of squirmy little life.

I doubt there'd be a problem if a few people dump fresh or even non-fresh grey water a few times. A busy campground having lots of RVs drop their grey water over the course of an entire year? how many gallons is that? I'd be starting to worry about the physical structure of the place eventually, much less worry about the acquifer once it hit some critical point.

I used to work for a hydrogeology company. The point is not, or should not be, "is this what's handy for me?" Yeah, one hiker leaving their garbage in the wilderness isn't going to hurt anything much, but twenty? Fifty? A hundred? How much garbage is allowed before it starts harming an environment, or even just the the enjoyment of that environment?

Believe me, you start tracking the plumes of things people dump on the ground and realize how far that stuff travels, and you stop believing in "just this once won't harm anything much."

We had a neighbor who "knew" he could dump the oil from his oil changes on his dirt driveway. A year after he moved away the oil started coming through the basement wall - totally destroyed the waterproofing and causing all the mortar joints to crack. The whole side wall would have caved in if we hadn't had it dug up and replaced. This happened when I was a kid. No EPA or soil remediation. We couldn't have paid for it if we'd known what to do. I do remember the contractor who did the wall repair stacking piles of soil on our cement driveway and actually getting some to burn! He did haul away a lot of dirt and replaced it with clean clay fill.

I wonder if it's broken down any in the last 60 years.

Paula

[zlee]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

I wonder if it's broken down any in the last 60 years.

That's a rhetorical question, right?

So, think about it, folks. You have a place that didn't used to have a lot is water with added bacteria in it going through it constantly. Suddenly, you add lots of water running through it.

Suddenly, you have an environmental factor that wasn't there before. How does it change things in that environment?

Just clean water will change an environment, especially if it gets cold enough to freeze there. Water with a lot of things in it that local fauna and flora can feed on or be harmed by? Biological or not, would YOU want to have soap suds surrounding you all the time? What would it to do your eyes, your skin? And if it turned out to be great for you, helped you to grow beyond all bounds?

In the UK, I live in an area that was drained centuries ago, but used to be a bog. Even now, the incidence of people there having fungus infections in respiratory systems, skin, and eyes is higher than in other places that didn't used to be a swamp.

All healthy soil has fungus and other living organisms in it. It holds the environment together, quite literally. If you add nutrients to the soil, those systems can go severely out of whack and the fungi can outstrip their environment quite quickly. Organisms like you and I will start gradually noticing sinus, skin, lung, or eye problems -- would we connect that to occasionally dumping our grey tanks in the driveway, I wonder?

And that's just one facet of many facets to consider. The earth can recover from a lot of the things we throw at it, but it can't stay the same trying to do it. With power, famously, comes responsibility.

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by robwok

Sorry, but I think the whole gray water thing is such nonsense. We use organic biodegradeable soaps. When it comes time, I'll be looking for places that would allow the dumping of gray water. I stopped at a friends house and hooked up to his shore and water supply. He was happy to allow extra water to water the ground. I realize most campsites don't allow it. However, it seems silly. I have been to a campsite that had an outside shower, and outdoor spigot. People took showers (with suits on) and washed their dishes at the spigot. To think that somehow the same activities inside a trailer magically transforms those same activities into a biological nightmare just because they ran several feet through ABS is ridiculous. Maybe someday we'll see a campground that has sand filters at each spot for folks greywater and only hookups for black. Makes much better ecological sense. I have been looking for ways to add gray water to my home system. Especially in a place like Colorado or AZ, you would think they would want the extra water topside.

I think this issue comes down to the Golden Rule, would you want to camp in a spot where someone just dumped his 37 gallon gray water tank? I know I would not. I only camp with and where people adhere to the " leave no trace" rule. An AS is built to be self contained; bring it in and take it out. So where's the problem? Even though I usually boon-dock I have never found locating a dumping station to be a problem or a particularly long drive. It is just part of the route planning. My gray tank fills up in a week, by which time I am ready to hitch up and move on to the next place anyway.

My idiot brother opened his gray water valve and then drove out of a campsite onto the road while trailing gray water. He went about five miles before he was pulled over by a local cop who promptly issued a $60 ticket. He got no sympathy from me.

[RickDavis]

Originally Posted by FlashSilver

I think this issue comes down to the Golden Rule, would you want to camp in a spot where someone just dumped his 37 gallon gray water tank? I know I would not.

While I am an advocate of gray water dumping I do agree with you. Gray water should not be retained for days in a tank and then dumped haphazardly. Ideally though it can be caught promptly in a bucket and broadcast among the bushes with no problem. If you hold 37 gallons that is only 5 gallons a day in a 7 day period spread over a large area.
I can assure you that if you would follow me into a campsite there would be no trace(or puddles) other than my tire marks

[zlee]

If you hold 37 gallons that is only 5 gallons a day in a 7 day period spread over a large area.

So, if there are four of you doing it...

[robwok]

I just realized that I was thinking from my perspective of mainly camping in wide open spaces. I prefer to avoid the campsites where you can see the other campers, unless my intention was to go to a rally or something. You may as well just park in a parking lot that has a playground with some of these places. I look at my camper as a way to get away from it all, not as a vehicle to go into a crowded area with people who are camping. Most of the crowded campsites I've gone too smelled of pine smoke, cheap beer, and body odor. And music that was in the bargain bin at the Walmart they stopped at on the way in. The few I was thrilled with provided me the comfort of home in an isolated place and I left it as I came - or better - I've had my kids do litter cleanup that's not ours just to instill the principle of leave it better than you found it. If they're bored, I even have them stack firewood for the next camper if they can find it amongst the deadfall.

I think the point I was trying to make was that I have a 40 gallon freshwater tank. If I know that I would be dribbling that out with a full open valve, I'm going to intentionally NOT put anything in the drain that's a problem. However, you have to make the rules for the inconsiderate jerks out there, but the biodegradable stuff gets buried (lettuce, tomato, bread), and everything else is packed out. No, I don't think it's appropriate to pop the cork and leave a trail of gray water all over for people to walk and drive through, but over 7 days of intermittent use, I would expect just about any area, unless I'm sitting in a clay depression, to absorb that amount of water in the summer. And don't think that if I'm 2 miles from the campsite and my 4 year old son has to go, that I'm going to deprive him of the same tree the coyotes use just because we're uptight people in this century who have no idea where an egg comes from and that everything in nature is dirty.

They ought to even make sprayers to hook on the end of the Thetford valve to widen the area of drainage, with maybe a screen to catch anything that was large enough to be seen.

Draining gray water openly wouldn't work in a super heavy used campsite with lots of spots, but it would be fine in one that was spaced out where different campers would park in different spots. Again though, I don't think everyone would think through everything that goes down the drain, and that would be a problem. However, I'm not going to feel a bit guilty for parking on a wooded lot or some farmland that someone has given me the permission to park on, and I water his property with clean water that has some small addition of phosphates that causes the grass to grow a little better later on. Keeping in mind I have an original 1964, and have few other options. I don't see packing 5 or 6 blue boys just to boondock in my 64. I'll just choose locations that allow a more natural campsite, and I'll take my trash and my blacktank water with me when I leave, and I'm sure mother nature will approve. In fact, I think from now on, I'll pack some flower seeds to sprinkle out on the spot at the beginning of my stay.

[zlee]

Not that I think I'm going to change your mind or anything, Rob, but sometimes water isn't appropriate for an environment. Especially water that's loaded with even biodegradable stuff. Is it going to end the world if you dump a gray tank in a wilderness somewhere? No. But it might bring the end that much closer.

[UAPachyderm]

Even if gray water might sometimes be safe water, incidents like the one in the link below create a perception hindering RVers from "dumping" anywhere other than designated dump stations. I always need fresh water before I need to discharge ... there are plenty in this area of the country so I always just make plans to use dump stations. Then again, my tank is combined gray/black, so I don't have any other option to consider.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-05...,5749199.story

[zlee]

Originally Posted by UAPachyderm

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-0503100266mar10,0,5749199.story[/url]

In a statement, the rock band said the gifts were an effort "to begin the healing process."

lol -- not to mention the public relations disaster!

[UAPachyderm]

Yeah, funny "stuff" (as long as you weren't on the boat). Like something out of Chevy Chase National Lampoon's OR Robin Williams' RV....

"Passengers on the tour boat, Chicago's Little Lady, described a downpour of foul-smelling, brownish-yellow slurry that ruined their clothes and made several of them sick."

[Wingeezer]

We seldom camp without full hookups, but on teh couple of times we did, we soon found out how quickly the grey water tanked filled, even being very careful with showers.

I thought about buying a blue boy but didn't want to lug that around when we would hardly ever use it.

So I pent a couple of dollars to develop a two step strategy that I think will work for us - haven't needed to try it out yet.

First, I found plastic dishpans that are a perfect drop in fit to our stainless double sinks.

Using these, we can dump grey water from the sinks into the black tank - I figure this will extend our capacity considerably as the black tank lasts us a long, long, time - we have a house rule that we only pee in it unless there is no other option - hasn't happened yet in 13 years!


In case that doesn't entorely resolve things, I have another trick up my sleeve!

I bought s sewer drain cap that has a hose fitting with its own cap built in. I bought rigged up a short length of hose to connect to it.

I then bought one of those five gallon collapsible square poly fresh water "bags" we will never use ot for drinking water.

So now, If I need to, I can nuse this to transport gray water five gallons at a time to a dump station each time we leave the trailer.

In a pinch I also now have the ability to run a hose off my waste tank outlet cap anywhere else in case other options might be available!

Brian.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Paul.

It's very easy to figure out.

DON'T GO THERE.

You will create an absolute "HEALTH HAZARD", in doing what you would like to do.

Andy

What possible "HEALTH HAZARD" is created by pumping or diverting some of the gray water into the black water tank?

In the houses we all live in they quite quickly mix with one another. I don't think the human waste from the toilet climbs back up into the sinks.

How about some facts to back up your "DRAMATIC" claim.

I'm pretty sure he's not contemplating using his fresh water sytem to effect the transfer.

Ken

[RickDavis]

Originally Posted by w7ts

What possible "HEALTH HAZARD" is created by pumping or diverting some of the gray water into the black water tank?
Ken

Not going to get into the health hazard claims however many years ago I capped off the outlet to allow sink water to go to the black tank. If you don't pay attention and you overfill. it will back up through the shower or bathtub drains and it is very unpleasant cleaning the mix out of the tub. To this day I keep an expanding stopper in the shower or bathtub ( depending on which trailer) and only remove it when actually in use.
It is not good to have "brown trout" swimming in your tub

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by RickDavis

Not going to get into the health hazard claims however many years ago I capped off the outlet to allow sink water to go to the black tank. If you don't pay attention and you overfill. it will back up through the shower or bathtub drains and it is very unpleasant cleaning the mix out of the tub. To this day I keep an expanding stopper in the shower or bathtub ( depending on which trailer) and only remove it when actually in use.
It is not good to have "brown trout" swimming in your tub

In my opinion, moving water from the gray tank to the black tank is no problem, but doing anything that allows black water to enter the gray water tank or plumbing is not a good practice. If for no other reason, the gray tank outlet plumbing is not usually constructed to allow efficient rinsing. And of course, no matter what, it is a good idea to pay attention.

Ken