Argosy holding tanks

[SmokelessJoe]

Andy Thompson of Can Am explains the fact that current Airstreams have about 4 times the holding tank capacity of old Argosys this way:


“The reason tanks are larger now is that they are mounted close to the
axles which allows two things. The tanks can be much deeper because
ground clearance is not as big a concern by the axles. The other reason
is the weight does not matter next to the axles
either. As well the frame rails are 6" further apart which leaves more
room for the tanks.”

Has any one out there installed new, bigger tanks in an Argosy? Maybe moving the grey to the axles and using the space at the front for a bigger black?


Sergei

[overlander63]

Sergei, you can move the grey water tank to between the axles, and have more grey water capacity. The '70's Argosies had a 7-10 gallon grey water capacity, so anything more you can put in would be good.
The black tank, however, usually rests on the floor in the bathroom, under the toilet. You really can't do much moving around there without major surgery. Black tank capacity uis about 10 gallons.

[CanoeStream]

Black tank capacity isn't as readily exceeded as grey (though the above floor black tank capacity isn't great to begin with). One might want a direct sewer connection if they like to do extended stays. Airstreams in general and the lighter older trailers in particular have the ability to scoot -- and who doesn't empty their tanks first?

My Argosy manual seems to speak for all lengths in '76:
Black tank (rear bath): 12 gal
Black tank (center bath): 23 gal
Grey tank (rear bath): 10 gal
Grey tank (center bath): 16 gal
Water tank: 30 gal
[Center bath is an option only on 28' Argosy. I don't know if that high capacity is all above floor. The water tank is above floor under the front window in my 24' -- can't speak for all.]

My 2006 25' FB has a 39 gallon water tank just behind the axles, a 39 gallon grey tank just forward of the axles, and an 18 gallon black tank just forward of that. Here's the catch -- all three tanks protrude about 6" under the belly wrap. All three tanks on my trailer look exactly the same -- about a 5.5' wide, 22" fore-and-aft black plastic box protruding 6" below the belly wrap. There are 4 heavy galvanized straps holding each in place. Not wanting to take my new trailer apart quite yet I cannot describe the insulation and heat ducting.

Silvertwinkie first mentioned the projection of the tanks 6" below the belly wrap. I've got to take it on faith that Airstream has the heat ducting done correctly. The noteworthy point is that the described 6" below the belly wrap places all tanks approximately 2" below the axles -- the outside axles near the hubs! These definitely aren't trailers you want to be hauling in to the deer shack.

[SmokelessJoe]

Thanks for the information Canoestream and Overlander.

I'm enroute now and don't have access to a SE 25 floorplan. Does the toilet exit directly into the tank on the SE?

Must a marine/trailer toilet always dump into the tank or can a clever run of large drainage pipe be employed for a short distance.

I would like to get rid of the above floor black tank.

Sergei

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by SmokelessJoe

Must a marine/trailer toilet always dump into the tank or can a clever run of large drainage pipe be employed for a short distance.

I would like to get rid of the above floor black tank.

Sergei

Sergei, if you are clever with the use of PVC, you can rig a pipe to go from your toilet, into the floor, and forward to a location between the axles for your black water tank. If you are really good, you can then hook the lines back into the original outlet for the black and grey tanks. This would do a couple of things for you.
1- It would open up more storage space in your bathroom, although I don't know what you would put in that space.
2-It would slightly lower your center of gravity, and could increase your black water capacity. You theoretically could carry more black water without straining your frame.
3- It would give back up to 80+ pounds to the front of the coach for increased tongue weight, for added stability. Ten gallons of water (plus the contents of that waste water normally in the tank) at 8 pounds per gallon is a lot of weight to take off the rear.

[SmokelessJoe]

Originally Posted by overlander63

you can then hook the lines back into the original outlet for the black and grey tanks.

Terry:

I can't follow the above. Can you clarify?

I plan to take the belly pan off to see what's where, so to speak.

My thought was to remove the above-the-floor black tank and locate a new, larger one someplace nearer the axles. But how to ensure the gravity flow of the black stuff to the tank?

( I imagined a new exit dump drain for the black tank being somewhere near the wheel well)

Perhaps it will prove simpler to install a NEW grey tank mid trailer and redirect the toilet to the existing grey tank. ( Making the current grey the new black).

The existing grey appears to be below the floor at the front, near the black tank.

I think re-plumbing the waste water flow could be done fairly easily.

I want to redo the rear bath in my 76 Argosy, getting rid of the ABS sink/counter in the process. What I want most to get rid of is that toilet sitting up on a ledge.

A floor mounted toilet will provide more space but most of all it will look neater, cleaner and give more design possibilities.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

I have found an RV supply company in California on the net that will make plastic tanks to order in any dimension. There may be more suppliers like that out there.

Sergei

[overlander63]

Sergei, your coach should have a common outlet for the black and grey tanks. By me telling you that you may be able to plumb the new tank so you can still use the original valves and outlets was so you didn't have multiple dump locations on your coach. As far as making the waste water drain, just remember the first rule of plumbing: S#*t flows downhill. You won't have to make much of a downslope to make an effective drain, although the steeper the better. If you take out you black tank, you will notice it has a definite slope to the corner with the drain hole in it.
After thinking about this overnight, I have realized a small problem, but not insurmountable: You should look into a tank monitoring system, as you will no longer ne able to physically see how much black water you have in your tank until it is full to the top.

[SmokelessJoe]

Terry, yes, I'd overlooked the common outlet in my planning.

One would want to maintain that, 'though if the tanks were relocated, the common drain outlet might also be moved somewhere closer to the new locations.

If I have the pan removed it will allow the frame to be inspected and provide an opportunity to see the current sewage system, then reimagine it.

Thanks.

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

Friends:

I posted an update with photos recently. Check the project out at

http://www.airforums.com/forum...ase-18448.html

if you are interested.

You’ll see that the trailer has been carefully de-commissioned inside and out and the pan removed.

The frame was in good condition. Despite 30 years having passed, some of the 1” x 2” steel tubing running lengthways atop the frame was in the original blue-black factory condition.

Nevertheless, Phil sanded and sand blasted the rust that develops around plumbing and where seams in the body panels and belly let in moisture over time.

You can see that the frame, hubs and axles have been primed and painted and we are now ready to move ahead with the remodel.

The first order of business is to decide how to re-plumb the trailer with new holding tanks.

The 1976 Argosy 24D had a 10 gallon black above the floor and a 12 gallon grey below it, both at the rear.

A 10 gal. black is OK. What I don’t want is the tank above the floor, taking up space inside the bathroom.

A 12 gal. grey is unacceptable.

This is our chance to bring the tanks to contemporary Airstream standards or better.

There are four well-situated locations between frame rails and crosspieces were we could install new tanks.

At the rear, 32 x 48 x 8 inches.

Just before the axles 34 x 56 x 9 inches.

Between the axles 30 x 56 x 9 inches

Just after the axles 22 x 56 x 9 inches

These spaces are clear, without having to modify cross struts. The dimensions are outside, allowing for 1” foam insulation all around.

Through Wiltsie, I have access to the Coast Distributors catalog. They carry about 20 different sizes of polyethylene tanks with floors sloping toward 3” outlets.

A tank in a size that would fit the between the axles would give a 43 gallon capacity for instance.

The task will be to find tanks with the outlet in a location that will make convenient plumbing and dumping possible. In the unlikely case that we can’t find one among their stock, we will have to custom order.

Our choices seem to be these:

(a) Install a new black tank, below the floor at the rear, with as much capacity as will fit the space

Install a new grey water tank near the axles, re-plumbing the shower drain and both sinks to this location.

Or, maybe better,

(b) Install a new European style cassette toilet. No black tank is needed; you remove the “cassette” through an access hatch created in the Argosy body.

Keep the present 12-gallon grey at the rear. The shower and bath sink already drain to it. Nothing to change.

Install a SECOND grey, 40 gallons or more near the axles, exclusively for the kitchen sink.

We will try to drain both greys to the present dump valve. If not easily possible, we can have a separate dump at each of the two tanks.

Do you have any suggestions or comments to offer?

I would especially be interested to know if anyone has used, bought or seen a “cassette” toilet.

Sergei

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by SmokelessJoe

I would especially be interested to know if anyone has used, bought or seen a “cassette” toilet.

Sergei

Sergei,
I have one in my Coleman popup, it does the job fine, it is good for about a week at a time with two people using it. One advantage IMHO is that it has its own water supply. It holds maybe 3+ gallons in the waste tank.

Aaron

[SmokelessJoe]

Aaron:

Is this the type you have?

http://www.thetford.com/permanent_cassette.cfm

Sergei

[wahoonc]

Sergei,
Yep the C4 is the one that is installed in the big Coleman popups...holding tank is bigger than I realized

Aaron

[overlander63]

Sergei, you have made a great start. Your statement about the black tank gave me an idea. Since you are doing some modifications to the waste plumbing, why not move the grey tank forward, as you indicated, and simply cut a hole in the floor under the black tank? You can theoretically double the black water capacity by extending the tank under the floor, and your weight will be almost the same at the rear of the coach, since you will be moving the greey water forward.

[SmokelessJoe]

Terry,

Yes, that’s what I called option (a).

I’m interested to explore (b) more fully because:

- It would mean buying and installing one tank instead of two.

- I’m not sure we can slope the drains for the shower and sink back toward an axle area grey tank efficiently. I suppose we could use some sort of shower drain pump to help do the job.

- We’d have to plumb the grey water back again, to a common dump valve, so that it could flush out the drain and sewer hose, after dumping the black.

The idea of a cassette toilet has some appeal. They seem common sense and our job might be easier for us.

I know these toilets are widely used in Europe, the standard I believe, but I haven’t seen one.

Do you know anyone here who knows about them?

Sergei

[wahoonc]

Sergei,
If you want to see a C4 toilet head to a Fleetwood dealer they use them in all their highwall popup units. Another interesting beast but I don't want one, is the recirculating toilet... they used them in TrailManors.

Aaron

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

. Another interesting beast but I don't want one, is the recirculating toilet...
Aaron

I don't think I WANT to know what they recirculate.

[SmokelessJoe]

Brits, Europeans please chime in on this subject. You have information you can share with us.

Thanks.

Sergei

[CanoeStream]

Hello Sergei -- It looks like the project is coming along. You say the belly pan is all removed? That gives you a better idea of spaces and routing of heat ducts and drain pipes.

I very much appreciate a grey tank the same size as the freshwater tank in my Safari. Most of the water goes to the grey it seems. On the Safari the black tank is only 1/4 full by the time my grey tank is full. This gives support to the idea voiced in this and your 'Contemporizing 1976 Argosy' thread about the 12 gal. black capacity being satisfactory. I really don't see a gain thru the cassete system. I'm usually wanting to tow the Safari to the campground dump station when the grey tank is full anyway.

Let me think aloud on your black tank relocation. It really doesn't intrude on the human space in the bathroom (being under the stool and cabinet). With the black tank out you conceivably gain toe space around the stool, and you would gain only small capacity increase in under-sink storage. I might think this part of the project is less important than increasing your grey tank capacity.

You have seen how the curbside and streetside lengthwise L-shaped pieces of steel are welded to the aft frame. To these are welded the angle supports for the grey tank. It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something similar if you wish to relocate the grey tank.

We use the Safari shower only occasionally, preferring to not fill up the grey tank. We use campground showers most of the time. We tend to be fairly mobile, changing our scenery and moving on every few days.

Unless you must have the black tank under the floor it does make some sense to keep the current grey where it is (and a 2nd grey added to handle kitchen discharge -- follows the KISS rule best). If you do place the black under the floor, putting the black where the grey is makes the most sense to me. Then you'd only need to find location for a grey tank somewhat equal to your 30 gal freshwater tank. Routing the bathroom grey water becomes the problem to solve -- gravity is better than machinery... You know & I know that insulating and ducting heat to the grey tank will provide only a small amount of protection -- but we'll all get caught by a cold snap if traveling in mountains or late fall, so would be useful to have for traveling with the furnace on if we have to.

I like the idea of boondocking but have done little so far. We've most frequently used state park campgrounds with dump stations and have not had to travel with black & grey tanks full. You want to minimize subjecting the frame to the stresses of full tanks and should seek out the closest dump station anyway. If you can do this, location of the tanks is less important. I very much do like the move in new trailers to put tanks closer to the axles. Let me know if you want some pictures of the drain setup on my Safari. but I won't take off belly wrap to show more! A new trailer must have its modesty!

Picture is a view of grey tank front from right behind curbside wheels

[SmokelessJoe]

Canoe Stream Bob:

Yes the pan has been removed and all the metal understructure sand blasted, cleaned, primed and painted.

There’s a photo at the end of my last post to the main thread on this remodel.

Now we are ready to re-plumb.

We can put the black back were it was but that’s an option I don’t like for three reasons:

A newer ceramic toilet doesn’t fit the space. I’ll have to use one of those squat, cheaper looking plastic ones.

I do find the lack of “toe space” a problem at my age. Surprised you don’t. Maybe your personal plumbing is aging better than mine is.

Finally, it’s a design question. I don’t like the toilet perched up on a shelf. The tiny room will appear to be larger if it has a flat floor and good, clean lines.

See the attached photo that I took in the new Winnebago VIEW motorhome built on the Dodge Mercedes-Benz Sprinter truck.

The rear bath is about the size of our Argosy’ but it seems much bigger.

Also, as I told Terry, I will have to run the waste drain from a new grey back to a common dump valve shared with any kind of rear mounted black tank as well.

I might be able to remount the existing black in approximately the same space as now but under the floor. The difficulty here will be that the present tank has a kind of snout or slide at the bottom which terminates at the 3” outlet. The tank plus protrusion may be too low for clearance if lowered another 5 to 6 inches.

People travel and trailer differently and I may not fit the picture of either the park person or the boondocker. My set up, car atop a flat bed truck pulling the trailer, makes the travel mode more like that of a bus with toad but perhaps more flexible.

I may stop at a public or private park from time to time but I also want to be able to stay behind a red barn on somebody’s farm.

Having gone this far to remodel the trailer, I want to consider ALL the possibilities.

Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it.

We will probably decide what we want to do next week.

I’ll let the forum know.


Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

frame painted ready for new tanks


rear bath Winnebago View