Fresh Water Leak From Hell

[dbj216]

I'm going to need your help with this one.

My 86 Limited is leaking water down the frame rail to the ground. I traced the leak to the 12v pump pressure line where it pressurizes the trailer's "main line" that is the source of water to all the fixtures. The 12v pump pressure line is the top fitting in the first photo. The one with the hose clamp.

The two lines going left are the hot and cold to the kitchen sink.

The forth, and lowest elbow is the suction line from the bottom of the fresh tank to the pump.

My trailer has three drain valves located below the subfloor, next to the frame rail, that allow draining of the water lines. I never use them. You can see them in the second photo.

My leak is in what looks like a tee just down stream of the top drain valve. My leak only happens when I pressurize with the 12v water pump. This line is not pressurized when I connect to city water.

The second photo shows the utter lack of work space to repair this leak. I can't see it from underneath the trailer, and there is no way to get a crimp tool to the fitting.

How in the world is a guy suppose to fix a leak from this line? I may have to gut the trailer, pull the shell, pull the belly pan and fresh water tank to gain access to this fitting. I hope the pictures help explain the dilemma I face. Maybe one of you folks know just how to do this.

David

[dbj216]

Today I repeated my testing to see if I could better pin point the leaking fitting. I pressurised the system with city water and dog gone if it didn't leak. I thought the leak was coming from the top tee, but I now think it is coming from the middle one. The middle one feeds the kitchen sink.

These three lines are very close together. I wonder if vibration didn't cause the clamps to rub through. But I can't see down there to determine where the leak is exactly.

I learned the three lines (main, hot and cold) run on top of the fresh water tank from the curb side wardrobe to the street side bath.

Has anyone ever found a "stop leak" product that might work topographically?

Ugh, so disappointing....

David

[J. Morgan]

I cant say how you will access these fittings, but if the trailer was mine I would consider replacing all I could reasonably get to with PEX while I was in there.

There is not going to be anything you can apply topically to stop the leak.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[CBWELL]

As J.Morgan says, the best is to replace as much as you can with PEX. Are you able to do it yourself? Pex tools can be bought quite reasonable, and it is easy to work with. I replaced most of the copper in my 1976, and have replaced some on my '94. Take your time, and plan it out, and you should be able to do a better job than the factory!! Chris

[Wayward]

If getting a crimper in there is a problem, consider using a ProPex fitting.

Wirsbo, makes a manual expander tool. If those grey lines are PB, you'd need to buy the appropriate brass adapter for transition to pex.
How to Make PEX Expansion Connections

[cwf]

Here is a Sharkbite demo.. you may be able to cut out the 'leak' then use one of the longer devices to branch the distance..
https://youtu.be/FPLdnlVak88

[idroba]

I shudder to remember a similar inaccessible setup in a friend's '87 32' Airstream. As you say, no way to get to the pipes, and very very limited clearances. In his case the valves shown were the source of the leak, but you could not get at them to replace them. His rig was stationary, and after a bit simply stopped leaking through the valve stems. Wheew.

But, about the only thing you can do is to use Sharkbite type fittings and hope to cut the gray polly pipe fairly square to push fittings on to the stubs after the bad things are located. Wish I had a solution for you, but that installation is one of the most difficult ones I have seen for re plumbing.

[J. Morgan]

The hole in the floor is going to have to be longer to effectively work on that.

Once you get over the mental hurdle of cutting your floor, the situation will become much easier.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[Skater]

There is a Sharkbite adapter that will connect to the gray pipe on one side and Pex on the other. I think it'll fit in your space, but as you noted you have quite a few pipes in the general vicinity, so I'm not sure. Ugh...it doesn't look like a fun situation. I dread finding a similar leak in ours.

[mandolindave]

what about…making a new " assembly

cut the old where you can get at it.
make an exact replacement
connect the new one with a shark bite

[msmcv51]

As cwf said about shark bite fittings watch the video. I have used shark bite fittings several times in our 87 Sovereign. One of which was under the floor under the sink and they work great.

[AirstreamPat]

There was a class action lawsuit on that plumbing in those years. Forget what it was called. It was used in mobile homes to. I would scab those valves out, and cut out more room and use new fittings as suggested. Sawzall time... !

[robert claus]

I'd think about forgetting how to access the back or middle lines. Cut them all out starting front to back, then rebuild with pex/sharkbite/pvc - whatever you can engineer that will work- from back to front.

[JCWDCW]

When I needed to redo the plumbing on my '89 water filter I used Shark-Bites. Very expensive but totally easy to do. Push on and it's done. and for an extra $1.00 you can get the little tool to release the fitting if you need to take it off. You need to be sure the Pex lines are the same size as the shark-Bites..If necessary just cut the line back at a better access point and fish a new length though the floor space. Your '86 looks jut like my '89 under the sink. Check it first but if necessary I'm betting the lines will have enough flex for the a fitting replacement if you cut it close the the crimped fittings. It seems to me I just used the Shark-Bites to match new Pex to the original Trailer piping
It looks like you can open up the floor a bit around the valves. That won't affect anything structurally.

[dbj216]

Thank you kindly for the good responses. I need help in this one and I appreciate what you folks have suggested.

I had an idea today. I decided to drain my system (think winterizing) and then pressurize it with 35 psi air pressure. Then I got my soapy solution out and I found the exact spot of the leak. It was the upper tee after all ! And it leaks badly. Blows big bubbles. The leak radiates from the frame rail side, right at the joint between the poly tube and fitting, just ahead of the clamp.

I was surprised that city water pressurizes the output pressure line from the 12v pump. The pump is the "check valve" preventing water pressure from entering the fresh water tank. My Trade Wind has a check valve downstream of the pump preventing city water pressure from entering the pressure side of the pump.

So I cleaned thoroughly with alcohol, towel and a stick and applied a 2 part epoxy designed for plastics. I made a little "hook spatula" to work the epoxy to the side and bottom of the fitting. I cannot reach this fitting with my fingers. This is a non sagging epoxy, but probably doesn't wick very good. I'll let it cure overnight, and retest it with air pressure tomorrow. I'll apply again if it is still leaking. If I can slow it down some, I'll take my planned trip with a leaky pipe. The water is leaking down the inside surface of the frame rail into the fresh water pan, and out the access port. Nothing is at risk of water damage. I'll fix it this summer when I can dedicate 50 hours of work tearing out the fresh water tank. It looks like a huge job, I don't have the time right now.

Increasing the size of the cut out in the subfloor would be a challenge. The frame rail is right next to this array of tubes and fittings. A cross member is just in front. And the "microwave" pantry cabinet wall is right behind it . I'd have to remove all that cabinet to get some access to saw a bigger hole. Believe me, I tried to find a way to gain access.

The push to connect style connectors are about 2" long. I don' have the room in there to work them. I hear ya about those three drain valves. They are not needed for me as I use air pressure to blow the water out, and then RV antifreeze pumped in every line.

I'll plan on replumbing from the 12v pump to the galley faucet and then under the floor to the street side bath when I drop the fresh water tank.

Here is a photo of the leaking tee devil. I think it may have rubbed itself through against the frame rail. But I can't see it.

And a photo of the new PEX I installed some years ago from city water inlet, water heater, and bath fixtures; toilet, sink and shower. Note the push to connect PEX to poly fittings I used to, well, connect up to the old plumbing.

I'll let you know if I can slow down this fresh water leak...

David

[Skatiero]

I have a very similar set up. I had similar issues with the blue poly under the floor in a small opening. It can be fixed from above because I did it. I used shark bites and built new pex above and then put it down under for the last "push" connection. Also when I had that line disconnected I put a tee in and a shut off so I can fill my fresh water tank from the city supply side from inside trailer. No more hose to fill fresh from outside. It's not fun but it can be done. Oh and I plumbed in a dishwasher where the micro was while I was at it.
Rob

[dbj216]

I air tested the fitting this afternoon. Still leaks like a sieve. It so happens my son is visiting from Denver this weekend. He has better hearing by a long shot. He was able to put his finger on the hole and stop the air escapement. He could hear it blowing out, and hear it stop when he put his finger on it. The hole is actually on the bottom the tee. I had not applied my epoxy there.

So I mixed up another batch and he applied it to the bottom of the tee. A difficult reach for me. I'll test again tomorrow. I'll encapsulate that bugger if I haft to. We plan on pulling out Monday.

We discussed how we could replace this top tee. I'm going to the hardware store tomorrow and purchase some fittings and see what can be done. I don't need a tee as I don't need the drain valve. I'll look for a push to connect poly to PEX elbow. I think there is room in there for that fitting. Then I can use my PEX flexible tubing and run it to the outlet of the pump.

I'm thinking about it. There may be a way after all.

David

[Wayward]

Originally Posted by Skatiero

I had similar issues with the blue poly under the floor in a small opening.
I used shark bites and built new pex above and then put it down under for the last "push" connection. Rob

Is the "blue poly" Polybutylene(PB)?

If so, did you use the PB-to-Pex Sharkbite adapter?

[dbj216]

Success! The epoxy that we applied to the bottom of the leaky tee stopped the leak. I've got 60 psi air on it with no soap bubbles. I have pressurized it with 40 psi water and no drips.

Now, the acid test will be bouncing down the highway. I will have parts with me just in case. I have a feeling it will hold for some time.

Then I will plan a big project to gain access to this plumbing and replace it with PEX. The fresh water tank will have to come out. Gives an old man something to do.

Thanks for all your help and encouragement. Rain tomorrow and then we pull out Monday.

David

[Skatiero]

Yes it's a push to fit coupling. Also I used a pex to BP crimp coupling.