busted pipes

[sfixx]

Excellent news. I stopped by the hardware store on my way home today and picked up 2 3/8th copper caps. I cut the pipes ahead of the break(s) and soldered on the caps. It wasn't easy to find spots where the pipes weren't enlarged by freezing so I ended up going way upstream into the bathroom closet to cap them real close to the "T" that they come off of. Anyway, I connected the water hose and filled the pipes and NO LEAKS!!!

While I was on a roll I fired up the hot water heater and it worked too!!!

Now I just have to figure out how to replace those pipes to the kitchen.

Thanks to all for great advice and suppport,

Steve

[balrgn]

Looks like this was only a minor set back, good thing you check prior to heading out!

[3Ms75Argosy]

Steve - I just finished hooking up my new waterpump, and running a new waterline from the pump to the waterheater. Smug, I hooked up the water and heard what sounded like the shower. "Funny, I did't think I left the shower on?" is what I thought. After I ran back to the shower, to find it NOT on, but still hearing the waterfall, this post came screaming into my head! OH NO!! Yup, I too have a waterfall coming out of the bottom of my belly pan from what sounds like under the shower.

So, what I'd like to know is, did your water lines go from under the sink cabinet, over the black water tank, and then down to the front toe kicks? I'm having a sinking feeling that that isn't the case, and that my bigger Argosy has lines that go BEHIND the watertank/wall-sink combo unit, behind the shower, and around the back. WWAAAAHHH! I can only see water lines going from the inlet (back streetside corner, behind the sink, and continuing around the corner around the back of the shower.

I think I need to gut the bathroom to do this right.....
Marc

[thenewkid64]

Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy

I think I need to gut the bathroom to do this right.....

Marc,

Not the whole bathroom, but it will seem that way. If your lines look to go behind the toilet, I posted a step by step for Steve in this thread on what you will need to remove to get to all of the lines.

If your kitchen is a curbside one, and the water heater is also curbside, you will have many choices of pipe to replace.

I will list them: Main feed to the water heater, or feed back to the bathroom from the water heater, or the hot or cold line that feeds the shower. I feel for ya, now you know why some Po's use a hose and clamps to fix it. They just want to go camping!

[3Ms75Argosy]

will fix it right up! I know, it seems like a lot. My h2o heater is on the streetside, I have it plumbed new from the water tank, to pump, to heater. Now I just need to go from the water heater to bathroom sink, to shower, to the kitchen.

So the trim, I assume this means I need to drill out the rivets behind the metal trim, and take it off, freeing up the back panel? It seems like I need to remove the closet too, to free up room. I think the only thing I won't need to take out will be the shower? The actual plumbing will be easy, I think it's just getting everything out of the way first.

Brett - as an aside, how does the catalytic heater work in Vintage Thunder? I need to replace my furnace too, as it just died too. I thought the catalytic heater needed to vent (per the tech instructions at camping world). Does it vent through the wall? Have you measured a CO2 level with it running? Does it heat the coach up well?

I think I'll be attacking it this evening. I'm not sure if I'll be done in time for the rally in two weeks time!
Marc

[w7toc]

Hi Steve:

I have purchased a 72 31' Airstream last year and will be starting on it soon. I don't plan to leave stock, as I have already put in new oak floors and oak cabinets. As for piping I was thinking of replacing the copper with that new plastic pipe out of Germany that doesn’t split open when it freezes. I live in Reno NV where freezing is a big problem. Had you given any thought to changing over? Or have you used some already? I was not sure reading your web site.

Thanks

Rick

[thenewkid64]

Marc,

The cat heater works very nicely. The venting requirements are minimal. There is no vent behind the heater. Having a window cracked and a vent cracked is all that is necessary.

The thing to remember is that it is radiant heat, no fan, no ducting. This means that tanks will have no heat, etc. You may want a fan to help move heat around.

[3Ms75Argosy]

Pex is what you are looking for. While I can't speak for Steve, I do plan to use it on the rest of my plumbing when I re-do it. I think as long as copper is winterized well, you shouldn't have to worry too much about splits. We had a quick freeze here in Seattle, and I didn't have time to get to it too early (my trailer is about 1.5 hrs from me and my wife was having some surgery done that required me to be home - trailers can come later )

Sounds like fun!
good luck!
Marc

[Janets Husband]

Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy

Steve - So, what I'd like to know is, did your water lines go from under the sink cabinet, over the black water tank, and then down to the front toe kicks? I'm having a sinking feeling that that isn't the case, and that my bigger Argosy has lines that go BEHIND the watertank/wall-sink combo unit, behind the shower, and around the back. WWAAAAHHH! I can only see water lines going from the inlet (back streetside corner, behind the sink, and continuing around the corner around the back of the shower.
I think I need to gut the bathroom to do this right.....
Marc

Stop!!! I had to do it to our Minuet. Don't take the shower apart yet.
I was able to pull the PEX around the shower enclosure with a little help.
I used a hose that was installed in place of the copper pipe for a pulling snake.
There is enough room behind the shower stall for the new PEX.

You can push in an electricians snake from the kitchen sink side, paying attention to the "from and to points". PEX does not bend well so you should try and pull it point to point. Once the snake is in place connect the new PEX to the bitter end. Use lots of real good tape to attach it. Have someone push on the PEX while you pull on the snake. A little finesse and it should work.
After you get the new stuff in just cut the old copper off as short as you can.

My Heart Bleeds for you

[Anon]

Originally Posted by Janet's Husband

Stop!!! I had to do it to our Minuet. Don't take the shower apart yet.
I was able to pull the PEX around the shower enclosure with a little help.
I used a hose that was installed in place of the copper pipe for a pulling snake.
There is enough room behind the shower stall for the new PEX.

You can push in an electricians snake from the kitchen sink side, paying attention to the "from and to points". PEX does not bend well so you should try and pull it point to point. Once the snake is in place connect the new PEX to the bitter end. Use lots of real good tape to attach it. Have someone push on the PEX while you pull on the snake. A little finesse and it should work.
After you get the new stuff in just cut the old copper off as short as you can.

My Heart Bleeds for you

I thought I could get away with doing the same thing in my Minuet. Guess what? There were three patches of rubber hose on the cold water line and two on the hot water line that the hose clamps prevented getting the PEX around it. I used the 3/8" PEX too. Nothing too big.
I also wanted to repaint the shower pan and the surrounds so I just drilled out the moldings and then drilled out the surrounds. I took the surrounds into my heated garage and cleaned them up really good. Sprayed them with Krylon Fusion paint.
I replaced ALL of my water lines. From the freshwater tank all the way around to the kitchen sink.
Ours are Minuets. I am assuming the original question is from someone with a motorhome. It will work the same way on the MH but there will be more room for wiggle around the shower surround.
I just figured that as badly sun-damaged that the finish was on the plastic that it would look better with a new "plastic paint" paint job.
Let me tell you, that Krylon Fusion works WONDERS. You do have to let it sit undisturbed for about a week before it will handle any serious use.

[3Ms75Argosy]

I've been thinking about this tonight (I only pulled a little of the trim, I was so mad, I left the trailer for awhile). I might be able to do as Gary suggests, its just so darn tight in the streetside corner with the tall cabinet and univolt in the way, I'd like to see and clean up behind there (starting to see some ickys with a flashlight ....old sponges, soaps, cobwebs, etc.). Part of me has always wanted to rebuild with better stuff in the rear, but realistically, I think if I just remove (carefully) and spray the counters white, it'd be a HUGE improvement..... but you know, $50K for a new 25ft CCD really isn't SO bad, is it? ........ it'd only take me 20+ years to pay it off!

Hey Gary, is there money attached to this fishing contest?
Still hoping to get it buttoned up pronto! I'll explore the easiest options in the morning.
Marc

[3Ms75Argosy]

I stared again at Steve's photos, and thought - "I don't have to follow the orginal path" - so very zen, don't you think?

If I use 3/8" Pex, I should be able to put it all under the toe kicks, right? I just have to figure out how to pull a water hookup up that tight corner to my new lines. I'll just use tee's off the main line to hook up the sink, toilet and shower.

Questions:
1) If I use 1/2" for the shower, and 3/8" for the sink, toilet, and kitchen, will that kill my water pressure?
2) Can Pex make those tight left right turns from the sink toekick to the shower toekick, and then right again to the wall, with another turn to the kitchen, or would I need elbow joints. I think the radius is too tight without them... what do you think (90 degree bends).

For a millisecond, I considered running pipes over the ceiling on the bulkhead to the kitchen...nah..... I'll keep trying!
Marc

[3Ms75Argosy]

I gutted the bathroom, as the toekicks weren't giving me the access I needed. I finally pulled all the old copper. YIKES! 80% of it was swollen, and I too had a large split like Steven had (see his blog) right in back of the shower pan.

I noticed DAYLIGHT from behind the black tank. I found that there was no flooring installed back there. I think I noted this in Vintage Thunder, but I have to go back and read up on their discoveries. For now, the black tank will stay, and I'll be running the Pex on Friday. Rough plywood fixtures will do for now, as the Battle Ground Rally is coming up fast. I'll dissemble everything after the rally again (should be easier this time) and rebuild with something nicer later. I'll figure out how to patch the rear later... I'm thinking foam under the tank? This is why I think the back freezes, as it's practically exposed to the eliments! My wife's surgery prevented my timely winterization, but oh well, it was so gross back there, that I'm glad I've an opportunity to clean up! (glass 1/2 full!)

Note to others - when one thing fails, others are to follow. My univolt quit on me for about 10 minutes when plugged in to shorepower at startup. After much internal cussing (already have to do the plumbing, furnace is next, now THIS!), it started up! I think it felt my fustration. Intellipower is number three on the list, to redo after the rally too!

Marc

[balrgn]

Love your attitude! It's just like they say, no good deed shall go unpunished.

Good luck with your repairs, although time consuming it will be worth it! I had a 1 foot section of the rear of mine that needed to be replaced. Gave me an oportunity to correct and upgrade a few things.

[sfixx]

Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy

This is why I think the back freezes, as it's practically exposed to the elements!

Hey Marc,

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread. I didn't even know that it lived on.

After removing the 2 toe kicks and opening up access in the lower kitchen cabinet wall and the bathroom closet, I replaced the lines with copper. I didn't have time to shop around for PEX and figure out all the new fittings and adapters. I also had to replace the flexible line to the toilet while I was at it.

Your theory about the cold air penetrating the rear is right on. Mine had another obvious problem: No fibreglass insulation in the belly pan under the black tank or shower pan. And those areas are pretty well sealed off from the bathroom so I doubt that they get much heat. I may replace my toe kicks with some sort of screen. Like the punched tin we used to have on our radiator covers when I was a kid.

All that's left is putting my new shower faucet backer in place. I'll post pictures early next week.

I tested my new pipe joints by leaving them pressurized with 30 lbs of air overnight, and they held!

Good Luck,

Steve

[balrgn]

I had some Plex installed by the PO, After it smacked me in the head a few times when I replaced some of the floor, I decided to go back to copper on the Hot water line. I elimintated quite a few couplings, adapters and reducing fittings that way. Looks cleaner too...

[Anon]

Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy

I stared again at Steve's photos, and thought - "I don't have to follow the orginal path" - so very zen, don't you think?

If I use 3/8" Pex, I should be able to put it all under the toe kicks, right? I just have to figure out how to pull a water hookup up that tight corner to my new lines. I'll just use tee's off the main line to hook up the sink, toilet and shower.

Questions:
1) If I use 1/2" for the shower, and 3/8" for the sink, toilet, and kitchen, will that kill my water pressure?
2) Can Pex make those tight left right turns from the sink toekick to the shower toekick, and then right again to the wall, with another turn to the kitchen, or would I need elbow joints. I think the radius is too tight without them... what do you think (90 degree bends).

For a millisecond, I considered running pipes over the ceiling on the bulkhead to the kitchen...nah..... I'll keep trying!
Marc

I would recommend using the brass PEX tees and elbows. The ACE hardware here rents the PEX crimping tool for $15/day. I used the crimps for all of my connections at the faucets. I also used it where I could not use the QEST PEX compression fittings. One thing to note is that the QEST compression fitting are AWESOME! I used CPVC from the freshwater tank back past the water heater. I then left the original copper where the built-in regulator and shut off valve come in from the city water hook-up. Some of the compression fittings I used are hand tight and they will hold 50lbs. of line pressure, (I tested it for three days at 50lbs)! I have no leaks. The water is up and running in the Minuet now!
All of my "systems" are functional. Hot/Cold water, electrical, propane, stove, fridge, furnace and water! YEEHAA!
On to punching the hole in the roof for the A/C now!