Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-05-2004, 09:11 AM   #1
3 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 117
Prepolish wetsand or not?

He said to use 3m wool pads for the final polishing. The sand paper is used for prep instead of all these expensive and damaging coarse grit compounds.

Still looking for anyone who has successfully used wet sanding and if they agree about its ease and less damage claims as made by my adopted granpa.

Thanks, Cliff

QUOTE=j54mark]Pads?? What pads? Are you saying use 3M pads rather than wet/dry sandpaper? Or are you talking about pads for the final polishing???

Thanks,

Mark[/QUOTE]
millionairstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 10:00 AM   #2
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Cliff,
I messed around last night with my 1971 Tradewind, some paint stripper, 400grit wet paper, a Snap-On pro slow speed buffer, and the 4 compounds.
Here is what crystallized after about 90 minutes of work:
Roof section: applied stripper - no bubbles, no action, no nothing. Perhaps no clear coat? OK, re-applied stripper, same difference - nothing to strip left on the roof.
I tried Nuvite on the wool pad, G6, F7, and C. It did not work very well, I never got a hint of a deep shine. I removed the residue with mineral spirits and discovered that the aluminum is corrodet and pitted, what looked like bad clear coat is actually degraded aluminum. Well, then, I took a piece of leftover 400 wet paper, sanded the previously polished area, and instantly got a smooth, black paste off the aluminum, clearly oxidation. I only gently sanded the area, and picked an adjoining area, just to get a comparison. Same thing, smooth black residue coming off the aluminum.
I did not have any finer grit wet paper, so I grabbed the buffer and the grey compound, and went to town on the 2 little areas I had sanded.
Instant gloss! No black spots, no milky areas. I tried some more with the different compounds, but got too hot under the roof of my warehouse on top of the ladder.
I believe that there is merit in sanding before polishing, depending on skin condition.
I also am convinced the if I went over the sanded areas again with finer grade, like 1000grit wet, that the C or S compound would have worked great, without actually compounding. I picked up some 600 this morning, the finest they had at HD. However, no time today to play with it.
Mine will have to be sanded on the top, and definitely on the front segments. They are hammered really bad from road debris. No polish will take that out, I am pretty sure.
The sides and back might require a light sanding after stripping, but this remains to be seen. I might just do the stripping and preparation work, and have a pro do the actual polishing.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 02:00 PM   #3
3 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 117
Thanks for guinea piggin!

I was told to only dip below the 800 grit for very deep scratches- and to try 600, then 400, and all the way down to 220 but that the .032 wouldn't stand much coarser than that with out showing it- also any clad that was there will be depleted quicker with the coarser grit.

Based on your experience, do you feel that you could go over the entire trailer twice in 1 day? Thats what I was told was realistic for a skin without too much damage and working on it out of the heat in a covered hangar in a typical 8 hour day. Sound accurate to you?

Were the scratches easy to remove with the buffer? He said to always advance from 800 to 1200 and then polish with coarse wool, and after with soft wool. He said that they also have a foam(?) pad for an extra smooth finish, and also to go over it with a bucket of white flour and use the foam pad for that to get black marks and residue off.

Most of these theories make perfect sense to me- I'm anxious to get going, and am glad that some have reservations about the "status quo" polishing systems that are widely accepted. It really made sense when he said that the circular buffing with coarse grit is actually "grinding" into the surface and needs to be repaired by hours of using softer grit compounds to make up for what you've created. His words were, "Hell, boy, thats about like pulling yer whole damn motor apart to change yer spark plugs- yer just causing yerself more trouble- that don't don't make no sense, does it?"

I think that if you have a desert rat trailer and want to take off years of oxidation- you start with something more coarse- 400,600,800 and if you have a reasonably nice finish, start with 800 or 1200 and then polish with either a soft rouge bar or this White Diamond, Blue Magic, whatever. But this expensive and slow process needs to be uncovered for the people who have less than 2 or more months of free time to challenge a cyclo and $50 tubs of paste to a polishing contest.

If the results are as good- or better as it appears, and the swirl damage to the clad is less- and the hours and expense are greatly reduced- why not?

Let us know how the 600 does- and thanks so much for the initiative. Cliff
millionairstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 02:48 PM   #4
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Were the scratches easy to remove with the buffer? He said to always advance from 800 to 1200 and then polish with coarse wool, and after with soft wool. He said that they also have a foam(?) pad for an extra smooth finish, and also to go over it with a bucket of white flour and use the foam pad for that to get black marks and residue off.[/QUOTE]

Not easy, but I know that i used too course a grit for just trying to polish over it.

[QUOTE=millionairstream]
Most of these theories make perfect sense to me- I'm anxious to get going, and am glad that some have reservations about the "status quo" polishing systems that are widely accepted. It really made sense when he said that the circular buffing with coarse grit is actually "grinding" into the surface and needs to be repaired by hours of using softer grit compounds to make up for what you've created. His words were, "Hell, boy, thats about like pulling yer whole damn motor apart to change yer spark plugs- yer just causing yerself more trouble- that don't don't make no sense, does it?"[/QUOTE}

Somehow you got to get the crud off the surface. Either by harsh compounds, or by sanding with different grit paper. Neither is quick and easy.
I needed the 400 to get the oxidation off, so now I need 600 or 1000 to make the 400 scratches go away. The buffer would make the scratches nice and shiny, but did not make them go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionairstream
I think that if you have a desert rat trailer and want to take off years of oxidation- you start with something more coarse- 400,600,800 and if you have a reasonably nice finish, start with 800 or 1200 and then polish with either a soft rouge bar or this White Diamond, Blue Magic, whatever. But this expensive and slow process needs to be uncovered for the people who have less than 2 or more months of free time to challenge a cyclo and $50 tubs of paste to a polishing contest.
I have sisal and cotton buffs with different rouges, as well as white diamond ( I think) in my shop. The rouge bars do work quite well, but I have not tried them on the trailer yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionairstream
If the results are as good- or better as it appears, and the swirl damage to the clad is less- and the hours and expense are greatly reduced- why not?
My point exactly. Plus, i am more comfortable with a bucket of water and some fine wet paper, to be honest. I am not sure if this will be the best solution, but due to the road debris damage to the front segments, I have no choice but to sand the damaged panels first.
[QUOTE=millionairstream]
Let us know how the 600 does- and thanks so much for the initiative.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 10:20 PM   #5
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
So how do you guys plan to actually do the wet sanding? Circular motions, or straight lines? Will it matter once you polish over the sanded panels? I also have some corrosion to get rid of, and road debris damage on the front panels. Luckily mine has already been polished once.

Any thoughts as to how to protect it once it has been polished? What do they do to airplanes, or do they just repolish them regularly? I wonder what this airport guy uses to clean with that he says will shine it up before he even gets to the polishing stage?
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 12:10 AM   #6
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Stephanie,
I would sand in a straight line, horizontally, for the final passes. I suppose it matters little for the first few passes.
The 600 will make swirls tha are still visible, but he 1000 or higher actually just makes the surface look clean and matte grey, with no visible swirls. This is what i am going to try and start polishing on, the matte grey, already sanded areas.
The polished surfaces should be kept clean as much as possible, and protected by a good quality sealant/wax. I was told that the polish would require a yearly once-over to keep it's deep glossy appearance. Time will tell.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 05:56 AM   #7
Rivet Master
 
LOST , Hawaii
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,193
Wet sanding has to be done in a straight line. Pick a direction and use that for all passes, all areas. Circular motion is good for fast material removal but it is going to leave very visible marks that will take a lot of work to remove.

John
74Argosy24MH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 07:40 AM   #8
3 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 117
thats the word-

Uwe- any notes on the 600? I was told that 400 was pretty strong for cutting- does the 600 negate the use of it on your trailer? Could you have started with 800?
millionairstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 09:18 AM   #9
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Quote:
Originally Posted by millionairstream
It just doesn't make sense that you replace horizontal wet sanding, starting with the lightest grade possible to get through your own amount of oxidation, step up if necessary, and polish with very inexpensive tools and polish/rouge- with a whole system of extra tools, extra damage to be corrected, and 5-10 times the hours to correct the damage and make it shine- does it?

Uwe- any notes on the 600? I was told that 400 was pretty strong for cutting- does the 600 negate the use of it on your trailer? Could you have started with 800?
No. fresh 400 is the minimum for my kind of oxidation and material damage. Maybe 600 with more effort, but I like to wet sand with only minimal pressure, makeing more passes rather than pressing too hard.
I tell you, this is definitely different than working with automotive paint.
I would not dismiss teh cyclo/polish method at this point. Not enough experience.
I suggest you get out there and start hitting the skin, see what you think yourself. It is definitely different not only for each trailer's metal condition, but also on different panels of the same trailer.
I could have started with 800 or finer on the roof, actually, but not on the pitted areas under the front window. Filiform corrosion will require more effort to be smoothed ou then freshly stripped, well preserved aluminum. I am guessing that fresh 400 and clean water might work well on that , followed by maybe 800 or 1000 grit.
But, that's work, too, and will take days to do. Definitely not a 1 or 2 day job, to sand a 25ft. trailer.
I am going to try the compounder on good aluminum next week. Going camping to the beach ( El Capitan) tomorrow.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 09:45 AM   #10
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
I agree, I wouldn't totally poopoo the nuvite system either, I've seen many beautiful mirror finish airstreams done that way. I there's just different ways to do it, and they are all time intensive, labor intensive methods.

Now to see if I can even find such fine grits of sandpaper around here. I think it's time to swing by the auto-body supply store.
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 03:10 PM   #11
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
I agree, I wouldn't totally poopoo the nuvite system either, I've seen many beautiful mirror finish airstreams done that way. I there's just different ways to do it, and they are all time intensive, labor intensive methods.

Now to see if I can even find such fine grits of sandpaper around here. I think it's time to swing by the auto-body supply store.
Stephanie,
Was'nt your trailer polished already? You should not need more than a fresh up? Am I mistaking your jewel for someone else's?
Ok, definitely hit the pro shop for auto paint and supplies. Don't bother with Autozone or the likes.
They have this sandpaper, made in Japan - it's wonderful to work with. I forget the name.
Please know that I have about as much experience with polishing aluminum as a doughnut. I am merely sharing what I found out so far. I might well end up using the Rolite scam once the damaged panels are smoothed out.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 04:13 PM   #12
3 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 117
I think we're on to something here-

This is all starting to make sense to me- hopefully others...

If you shouldn't wet sand in a circular, or multi directional fashion- as it removes more material, (as stated by 74argosy)it would make sense NOT to use coarse grit on a wheel, as the same thing would happen. Additionally- if more material is removed, the old man is right about that way removing more clad from the surface.

If we horizontally wet sand into a smooth surface- the gray type that Uwe found after getting his oxidation down, then any soft grit rouge or polish should be able to tackle the job of perfecting the skin into a mirror- the hard part is done by the paper- at a much lower cost than the nuvite compound, and without causing the damage, i.e., removed material, and leaving circular swirl marks that need blending afterwards.

Maybe someone else can try it and post step by step- starting surface, wet sand through stages, polish with rouge or polish, clean up with flour.

Everyones case will probably be different depending on what they started with as age etc have affected their skin, but as the old timer said to me- "it aint nothin but aluminum underneath- ya just gotta figure what'll get down to the part that shines without takin forever about it. Once ya get there, if ya did it right, ya won't have any swirls to fix, and ya can get anything to shine it up nice."

I have a lot of confidence in his opinion- I saw enough of what he did, and its all making sense- anyone else have the same thoughts?
millionairstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2004, 06:53 PM   #13
RivetAddict
 
swebster's Avatar
 
1986 34.5' Airstream 345
Louisville , Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,861
Images: 4
I just tried a little test using this method. I had heard from some other reliable sources that the wet sanding was in fact one of the prep methods for later model alclad (like on my 345) as a method to reduce the "grain" in the aluminum before polishing. Since a mirror finish is essentially a zero grain finish, taking the skin down to perfectly smooth with wet sanding makes some sense for my AS.

So...this afternoon I tried three tests using the wet sanding method. I'll post pics tomorrow of my results. One was on the skin, one on the front bumber and one on the grill. I concentrated on the nose of the AS since it has the most corrosion and just plain pits from 17 years and 177,000 miles at 65 mph. I have to say....I was impressed with the results. The effort was reasonable but I have no comparison to other methods. Rather than go into great [undocumented] detail I'll just post the pic with short descriptions tomorrow.

I for one see this wet sanding method as a possibility for my AS. I do think however that there is still a cyclo/nuvite final once over but by using 600 then 1000 grit followed by blue magic on the snap on buffer I could not believe the improvements....not perfect but better than expected.
__________________
Steven Webster
1986 Airstream 345 Classic Motorhome
AIR 1760
swebster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 06:16 AM   #14
Rivet Master
 
LOST , Hawaii
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,193
OK, once more with a little less enthusiasm. Keep posting your results, lets see how the wet sanding works.

John
74Argosy24MH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 08:51 AM   #15
Rivet Master
 
fireflyinva's Avatar
 
1961 22' Safari
Vienna , Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 579
Images: 3
Questions that take us back to science...

I have been trying to figure some of this stuff out...

Polishing, according to the research I've done in some textbooks on the subject, is the process of using finer and finer grades of abrasives to grind a surface smooth. Generally, these abrasives are suspended in a liquid or creme substance, known as lap. In use, the process cuts very small grooves into the material, eliminating the layer of material that has oxidized into a patina. In this process, it is important to avoid creating any degree of friction that generates sufficient heat to melt the surface of the metal, since the idea is to cut it.

A second process may also be used--buffing. In the buffing process, very fine abrasives are used with a very soft cloth at high speeds to create sufficient friction to melt down the surface of the grooves cut by the abrasives. Buffing is not appropriate for every material.

So, in sum, polishing cuts off a bit of the material, while buffing melts down a fine layer.

Based on this, I have a couple of questions, which I think would require a high understanding of metal properties:

- First, it is apparent that some of these polishing approaches use buffing while others do not. Is there any research on whether buffing is harmful to the structure of aluminum?

- What lap is most appropriate for polish? Sandpaper is a lapless way of applying abrasive. What are the comparative benefits of using lap?

- How do we know what abrasives are used in polish? What are the comparative merits of different abrasive materials (diamonds, garnets, grit are some of the more common ones I know of)?

- Is there any material benefit to polishing? How many times can you polish before compromising the metal structure?

- Finally, in the back of Aviation Maintenance magazine, I see ads for coating materials. They promise easy application and removal--and greater protection to the skin. Has anyone ever looked into if new coating materials could give greater durability to a polish job?

In looking over the tenor of this discussion, I see argument stemming from concern over the cost and effectiveness of different polishing systems. It seems to me that the likely difference is chemical. The tradeoff elements are clear: different grades of lap and abrasive--and the effect of buffing on the chemical composition of aluminum. This is a subject for very detailed research in materials engineering (as it is a critical concern for the computer chip industry). I may be going on a limb here--but I don't think conventional wisdom of any sort (or even trial and error accounts) are going to resolve this--it's a question for science.
fireflyinva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 03:17 PM   #16
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by uwe
Stephanie,
Was'nt your trailer polished already? You should not need more than a fresh up? Am I mistaking your jewel for someone else's?
Yes, mine was polished using the Nuvite by the previous owner. I haven't done anything to it but wash it since. It has suffered pitting on the front from roadrash, and tiny little pinhead size dots of corrosion, which is worse towards the front. There is also water marks and such giving it an overall haze. It would be nice if it was shiney again. Here's a pic:
Attached Images
 
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 03:32 PM   #17
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
So I did some experimenting with polishing today. I had at my disposal some SS, some Eagle One Aluminum Wheel Polish, and some Meguires Polish for Clear Coats. Thought I'd give them all a try here and there. I also had some 1200 grit sandpaper, which is pretty fine, from the auto body supply store, and my brand new variable speed buffer with 3m pads which I bought just for this occasion.

I took the side compartment door, and started out by hand polishing a spot about the size of my hand with the SS. It took a few minutes, but it finally cut through the corrosion dots and left a very nice shine.

Wanting to experiment further, I got out the hose and carefully wetsanded the other end of the door. The sandpaper cut right through the corrosion in a couple passes. I didn't press down on the sandpaper at all, but it still did the job. It left very fine scratches in the rest of the metal though. I ended up polishing it several times with the SS by hand to get it back to a nice shine, and it still wasn't as nice as the shine I got totally by hand.

Thinking that maybe I was being too easy on it, and needed to sand a little more in order to even it all up, I went ahead and sanded the rest of the door, only a little more thouroughly. The result was a smooth hazy finish with very fine scratches again. I'm attaching a picture of it at that stage.

I then experimented with the newly sanded area. I used SS and the buffer on it, and wasn't really happy with the results. I thought I had to use a lot more SS than by hand and still ended up buffing it clean by hand because the buffer got to a certain point where the black stuff was all over the panel, and that's as far as it took it.

I tried the Eagle One, and didn't see much difference between it and the SS. I thought it worked better with the buffer, maybe because it's a paste. I tried some by hand as well.

Finally, I tried going over the whole thing with the Meguires. It was hard to buff off, but I did think it made it shine a little finer than before. Probably the same concept as using progressivly finer polishes like the nuvite system.

Overall though the door still had a slight haze of fine scratches. I probably could go back and get finer sandpaper and work those out, then finish up with polish to get a nice shine on, but overall I think in my case it would be more work than just doing it by hand. The original shine is pretty nice, it just needs the corrosion knocked off, and I don't think the sandpaper really adds any benefit in my case.

The last picture is of the finished door, which still looks pretty good once I stepped back from it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	wetsand.jpg
Views:	571
Size:	13.8 KB
ID:	6471   Click image for larger version

Name:	door.jpg
Views:	607
Size:	37.8 KB
ID:	6472  

__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 03:46 PM   #18
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Stephanie,

I don't think you need to sand. I believe that you can get away with a good polish.
Oh, and never put your buffer face down on the ground - it will pick up dirt and make nasty swirls.
Good Luck!
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 04:25 PM   #19
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
Oops! I didn't even notice I had until I got the picture uploaded. I'll be cleaning that mitt before using it again.

I'm going to go try some polishing by hand on the body and see how it goes. It does suffer from a lot of little chips and nicks on the front, probably from all those trips to Alaska. Unfortunately when I polish those areas the black stuff gets in the chinks and makes them stand out even worse.

Dosen't bother me too much though. It's not perfect, but it comes by it honestly
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 04:40 PM   #20
uwe
418
 
uwe's Avatar
 
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley , California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
Images: 41
Send a message via Skype™ to uwe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
Unfortunately when I polish those areas the black stuff gets in the chinks and makes them stand out even worse.

Dosen't bother me too much though. It's not perfect, but it comes by it honestly
Stephanie,

The black stuff comes off with mineral spirits on a rag.
Use a rag with the spirits, and a dry one to wipe after it immediately.
It might work with other solvents also, mineral spirits was just what was sitting around here. Let me know if you find something that works better.
Read the thread "finally got started" it has great info to share.
__________________
Uwe
www.area63productions.com
uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.