Vinyl Floor Buckling

[Forrest]

Just to clarify, as one post said that glue is not used. Glue is used in spots where there is no furniture to hold it down, such as in front of the entry door. How else could it be? All vinyl flooring instructions specify using glue though. Vinyl flooring is not designed to float (although I do remember seeing a new very expensive type that is very heavy and thick that doesn't need glue, but that isn't what Airstream uses.) Airstream may have its reasons for not gluing down every inch, but I'd be speculating to say what those reasons are. As for me, I glued down every inch of my Armstrong vinyl floor in my Globetrotter 5 years ago and have had no problems. But don't take my word for it. Read the instructions that come from the manufacturer.

[Gene]

bolerama, your post is very interesting since we were just at JC and the floor was newly glued where it expanded which is not what you were told by your dealer. That was right in front of the bathroom cabinet.

Since we live in Colorado, Forrest's post about altitude is also interesting. If it happens to us again, I hope it's soon before the warranty is up.

I can't see how the vinyl would easily contract once it's expanded. It's the kind of substance that will stretch, but it would almost impossible to make it return although summer heating might help a bit. I imagine they don't glue the whole floor because putting down some daubs is less labor than doing it right.

Gene

[bolerama]

It is now near the end of May and the floor has flattened somewhat, but there are still some waves. I'll keep you all posted as the summer progresses. We went on our first camping trip last weekend, and that activity (big dog sleeps there) might have helped out. I'll keep putting my big dog's bed over the worst areas...he's needs to start earning his keep, so flattening the floor will be his job! Now, what to do with the fluffy dog. She needs a job too, and she's not too good at dusting the floor with her fuzzy tail.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

The simple answer is yes, however that's the simple answer....there are some authorized Airstream Service Centers/Dealers that I wouldn't take my niece's Big Wheel to....... while other dealers/service centers are top notch....the trick is to find a good one that can do some higher end type stuff and do it well. The factory is one such place I am aware of, some place in Texas, I think it's Roger something Airstream, Airstream of Arkansas, Ace Fogdall in Iowa, Inland RV in Corona, CA...there are perhaps a handful I have left out and for that I aplogize, but as you can see, of the quasi large dealer/service network, a handful isn't really all that big.

Roger Williams RV is in Weatherford Texas, near Ft. Worth. They put disc breaks on my 2008 International, and I would trust them to do most anything to an Airstream.

SRW

[darlingbooks]

We also have had similar vinyl flooring issues. Our floor buckled for about 6 feet running from in front of the closet down the hall towards the kitchen and a small lifting next to the door close to the cabinets. I covered up the buckle down the hall with a rug runner 2X8 foot, and unless one is looking for flooring flaws, this one is covered OK. All of this does not mean that I like it, but we covered it up.Did any one consider that the trailer might be shrinking when cold, and expanding when warm, encouraging dissimilar expansion and compression of its parts? If the vinyl does not shrink much when cold, but the trailer does, this may explain the buckling when cold and the relaxing of the vinyl when in warm temperature when the trailer expands. Our Classic’s flooring buckles run from front to back and not across (curb to roadside).The PEX plumbing is installed to accommodate expansion and contraction, perhaps the flooring is also designed to move.Steve

[darlingbooks]

The temp is 80F inside and out of our trailer, and has been all day and the time is 7:00PM. I just walked down and took a look at the vinyl floor, and the buckles are relaxed some, but I can find them easily by pressing the flooring with my fingers. We have carpet strips on both buckles, and if one is looking for the flaws, they can be found. Steve

[Gene]

Without checking all the threads, it seems that a lot of the reported buckles run front to back. In ours, the vinyl floor stops at the bedroom where there's carpeting—any expansion in that direction goes under the transition piece. But side to side there's plenty of furniture and partitions to lock down the floor when it expands (or the trailer shrinks).

When you put down a floor properly, you allow a space all around the walls for expansion, and then put trim down at the junction between wall and floor. Even with a tile floor, you are supposed to leave some space for expansion—even hard floor tile can expand. In the trailer, they just put down the flooring and then put the walls on top of it. Of course there will be problems, and it seems worse the colder the climate. The cold thing doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't matter.

The problem is the vinyl is improperly installed not allowing for expansion. I've installed flooring and subfloors in a couple of houses, and you always leave expansion spaces, including in the subfloor. Even plywood can expand, though very little. Somehow I missed the obvious. When our buckle was repaired, the tech cut a little off the vinyl in front of the bathroom cabinet and then put quarter round trim over it. Problem solved.

However, in the corridor, there may be no space for quarter round because of all the doors and how close they are to the floor. You can buy pine trim about 1/4" thick and 1 1/2" deep (not sure that is exactly right dimension, but close) and rip it to smaller pieces and nail it down with brads to cover a space you create by cutting the vinyl at the edge to leave an expansion space. Nail the brads to the subfloor, not the vinyl. It's tricky, but you don't want the vinyl pushing the trim into the wall; you want the vinyl to slide under the trim. Better yet, if under warranty, have the dealer call in a floor guy to do it because floor guys would understand this.

It's easier to lay the vinyl first and put everything on top of it, but it doesn't work because floors aren't done that way in the real world where things expand and contract.

Gene

[bolerama]

It is June 27, and we just returned from a trip to the Saskatchewan badlands. The near 100F temps on one day did wonders for our floor. It has mainly flattened in the entrance and kitchen area, but the area under the dinette has only a bit of improvement. That's ok since we don't walk there and won't trip over it.

[BDandTTs]

We had a small amount of buckling in our 2005 22' CCD immediately following delivery in 2006. It was a small ridge just in front of the galley cabinets and the refrigerator. I noticed it every time I walked into the Airstream. During our first warranty trip to Jackson Center, the tech said that nothing could be done. The second time, we agreed upon a fix. They spliced the vinyl enough to lay it down in front of the cabinet and finished the edge with some black quarter round. I still notice the repair, but I'm sure that it is not obvious to others.

Dianne

[vunico]

can i assume this problen is with the "plank" style flooring,not the "parquet" style in the safari se's ??

[BDandTTs]

can i assume this problen is with the "plank" style flooring,not the "parquet" style in the safari se's ??

If you were referring to my recent post, our flooring is sheet vinyl embossed with a plank-like pattern. It was installed throughout the trailer without seams.

I'm not familiar with the SE flooring.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by vunico

can i assume this problen is with the "plank" style flooring,not the "parquet" style in the safari se's ??

The SE flooring is the same vinyl as in other trailers—the surface design, plank or parquet, makes no difference. We have an SE and had a problem too.

Dianne's post shows the standard repair at JC is to trim some off vinyl at the cabinet and then use a piece of quarter round to cover the cut. That's what they did in our bathroom, though they used not black trim, but a natural wood trim. The only problem with that is that it looks better than the fake wood surface on the cabinets, but it's not somewhere people really look.

I don't think this fix would work in every instance—where cabinet doors open downward as in front of the guacho sofa, or under the dinette table where Bolerama still has a problem.

My guess is when it gets hot the glue sticks to the floor again, but the repetition of freezing and thawing will eventually cause the glue to fail permanently and the floor will not flatten again. Since no one walks on it under the table, it hasn't been forced back onto the glue. Since this total glue failure may happen after the warranty period, dealers may claim it was too late, but so long as it was reported beforehand, the warranty should be in effect.

Gene

[Silverwanabe]

How about having full carpet installed in the entire unit?
The way AS used to built them.

I do not like half vinyl and carpet in the modern units.
I like the look of a full carpeted unit.
Just me.

With the new units, they have corrosion problems and now the vinyl floor is coming up.

I stay with vintage.

[Gene]

Since the floor buckled up in a ridge extending front to back in our bathroom, it has happened twice more. Both happened after the warranty ran out, but I think that it should be covered since it started before the warranty was over. I have not had time to contact Airstream, however.

Last year a buckle, ridge, bulge or hump appeared right in front of the stove and cabinet, again running front to back. Barb put a throw rug over it.

This past winter one appeared between the end of the L-shaped sink cabinet and gaucho running front to back and about 4 or 5 feet long. I have thought of putting some heavy things on it to see if it returns to flat.

As I wrote before, I believe this is caused because the factory installs the floor first and then puts the cabinets and partitions over it leaving no room for expansion. This saves a lot of labor, costs a lot for warranty repairs and hurts reputation. Compounding this may be that either they don't use glue or the glue fails when it is cold—perhaps they use glue not suitable for cold temps. The problem appears to be worse in colder climates in Canada and in the Colorado Rockies. Either would be a serious design defect.

Gene

[kidsgone]

Gene,
We have a similar problem...I noticed the flooring under our dinette was turning black along the edge. We took it to a AS dealer in Alachua and they confirmed the leaks we originally had on the window effected the flooring. We have waited many weeks to get the flooring from Airstream (Under warranty!) and it is finally in. My question is, all the flooring is being taken up (had severe flood in AS...JC fixed), the dealer said they have to remove the front couch/dinette and the bedroom, but wasn't the original floor laid first...even under the kitchen/bath/shower? We want them to do it right and they have been nice enough to call us so we can travel up there to watch the process and we want to see if any damage is under the bedroom floor. Any advice from anyone? All our leaks have been fixed for a long time now and we don't want to face flooring issues again. Dealer advised us that if the bedroom floor is bad, we will have to wait for Airstream ok to repair it....its been at the dealer for 7 weeks. Advice?
By the way, Gene, where is Crawford? Kids live in the Springs and we go out there often!
Andi

[Gene]

Andi,

I guess (emphasize "guess") they want to remove everything to pull out the old floor and put in the new one the way it is done in the factory.

I've done tile, laminate, and wood floors in 2 houses and the instructions are always to leave a 1/4" to 3/8" space from the walls and partitions to allow for expansion of the floor and walls and partitions. So, if you don't do that, it seems the floor will eventually create problems.

Since they think the problem is caused by water infiltration, ask how the vinyl can buckle from water? I understand you floor has a black edge which would probably mean mold, but has it buckled too? Vinyl seems pretty impervious to water, unlike wood or laminate, but maybe I'm wrong. We've had leaks at both the front and back panos, but the buckles started in the middle of the trailer, progressed backward and are only now getting close to the windows.

If they want to replace the vinyl, what would the condition of the subfloor be? If the water can cause the vinyl to buckle (which I am skeptical about) what has it done to the subfloor? Mold? Deterioration? Have they talked about that? If the subfloor has to be replaced, everything does have to come out.

I wish I had better answers for you, but without having been there it's pretty hard to understand. Photos may help. You said there was water damage from a flood too? Was this one of the Airstreams that was flooded in Georgia a while back? If it was, I am surprised Airstream is fixing it because I thought those were total losses.

Crawford? It's an old cow town being slowly transformed as agriculture is not economical for many here and retirees move in. It's 75 miles east of Grand Junction, 100 miles south of Glenwood Springs and 10 miles north of the North Rim of Black Canyon NP.

Gene

[SmokelessJoe]

Crawford Gene has it right.

It's production line thinking. A daub or two of glue here and there. Slap the vinyl down. Don't waste time making sure there's a gap all around the perimeter.

Result: air pockets and eventual deterioration of the adhesive.

Ask yourself: would a good, competent flooring installer rush in and install sheet goods by putting a little glue here and there?

Despite lots of contrary opinion here, we glued down every inch of our Marmoleum, using the proper Marmoleum adhesive, and it looks as good today as it did 5 years ago.

See post #52 here:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f227...e-18448-4.html

Sergei

[kidsgone]

Gene, Thanks for your insight. We leave early tomorrow morning (Friday) to take a look at the floor as the linoleum has been removed and we asked the dealership not to install until we see the subfloor. Taking the camera! Will keep you posted as to our findings..hope there isn't any.
No, our AS was not in the floods of Georgia...is was on the assembly line in "08 when AS had a layoff...need I say more! Our flood was from the exterior storage areas...didn't have the proper seals on them and in a very bad rain storm, the water entered into the bedroom. Course it was at night and we didn't realize the flood (over our feet) until the middle of the night! BUT you have made us rethink this Georgia issue. We bought our AS from a dealer in Tampa...how would we know if they got it from Georgia? Hmmmm....
We didn't have much buckling, but did have an area that was soft under the dinette.
Keep you posted.
75 miles from Grand Junction...by Ouray? Ouray is one of my favorite places!
Andi

[KJRitchie]

We moved from DFW Texas to Springfield, Missouri a few months ago. I brought up our Airstream in March. There were a few days where the temperatures were well below 20F if I remember correctly. Yesterday I brought the AS from storage to take out for the first time in Missouri and while cleaning the floor my wife reports the vinyl floor in front of the oven is buckled. After reading this thread it appears this is "Airstream normal" and hope it will flatten out as the temperatures get warmer. I'm getting fed up with the issues my 2008 AS has had since purchasing it in March 2013. We are very close to selling it.

Kelvin

[KJRitchie]

Question, if the kitchen cabinets, dinette frames are screwed down has anyone tried removing the screws to cabinetry adjacent to the buckling to see if the flooring will expand back correctly? Now that higher temperatures are coming I could do that while the AS is in storage.

Kelvin