Vintage trailers: What can we agree on?

[markdoane]

I understand your desire for a simple answer. But what seems to be a simple question is like asking "what car should I buy?". A lot depends on how you intend to use it. If you give a little more information you will get a more complete answer.

Do you use your trailer for boondocking, or mostly at RV parks with full hook-ups?
What 12v appliances do you have and how much so you use them when not hooked up to 120 volts? How often do you use the trailer? How much do you want to spend?

The simple answer is: any 12v deep cycle battery that will fit in the box, the cheaper the better. This assumes you do not want to spend a lot of time on battery maintenance, and will replace the battery every 12 months.

[InsideOut]

Originally Posted by Rog0525

I don't see any possible way to make a thorough poster depicting all of the years and models, but how about if we add photo links to Shari's matrix like in the attached illustration?
The camera icon would be a hyperlink which opens a photo page of that particular model.
I believe that a chronological chart with comments and photos like I'm suggesting would be the most thorough database of it's kind anywhere.
I've owned eleven different vintage models and years and I have photos galore which I'd gladly contribute.

Sounds like a very interesting and worthwhile community project to me. Your thoughts?

I'm glad to hear some of you are finding the 'Vintage Airstream Matrix' helpful. While I think photo references would be a nice addition...there are several 'hiccups' that would have to be overcome. First being, with all the options that were/are available (ie. Land Yacht, International, Custom layouts, owner modifications, etc.) and the California vs Ohio differences that exist, what exactly is a 'typical' representative of each year & model? RJ Dial has a great collection of photographs on the 'Vintage Archives' at vintageairstream.com that I know has taken years to gather, so a pictoral reference already exists. You can get an idea of how involved it could get to combine all this information into one location...not to mention the time & effort that it would take to collect and maintain this database and the server space to host it....it could easily be a full-time job for awhile.

The intended purpose for the matrix I created was to have a quick reference tool to help identify gross differences, design changes and transition years, which could be used hand-in-hand with RJ's existing vintage archive photographs or the AirstreamForums.com photo references as they grow, in an effort to narrow down the age of a 'mystery Airstream'. At times, I've found it cumbersome to search through all the photos looking for the distinguishing features without an idea of where to start, thus the simple matrix was 'born'. It can be printed out (20+ pages) and tucked into your trailer or car for a reference tool when on Airstream sighting excursions. Photo references couldn't really be incorporated unless a major book effort was undertaken...

Shari

[overlander63]

Why not make a "sticky" FAQ list at the beginning of every model thread? Besides, of course, the fact that it would be a major pain to do.
It can be as model and year specific as needed, stay where a new user could find it, and maybe cut down some on the redundant posts.
Things that are common could be cookie-cuttered into the FAQ, with specifics following.
Terry

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Craftsman

It would be great to see the "family tree" idea carried through to a poster,(24"X36"?)with a picture of the model year and a listing of the changes. Something that you could frame, hang on the wall and refer to.

I would suspect the "poster" would need to be several maybe one for each major body change? RJ's website has been invaluable for comparison. Any time I have a question about what a particular model may or may not have had or looked like it is the first place I head. Second place is AirstreamForumsPhotos, but the searches there are somewhat cumbersome because of the way people have keyworded or not the pictures. JMHO BTW someone let me know when they find a LEAK FREE 70's vintage anything

Aaron

[juel]

Thanks Don, now that was a "good answer". Actually I haven't used my Argosy yet and I don't have any 12V appliences that didn't come in the coach when it was built. I will try to give more information when I ask questions in the future. Of course you kinda have to know the questions to ask, and I guess I don't. I want a good battery that I could do a little RV park-boondocking type combo if the spirit moved me. I'd like suggestions from cheap to excellent. You know that kind of Good to Very Best type of thing. Then I wouldn't have to let everyone know whether I was really checp or not. Thanks again for taking the time to help me.

Originally Posted by markdoane

I understand your desire for a simple answer. But what seems to be a simple question is like asking "what car should I buy?". A lot depends on how you intend to use it. If you give a little more information you will get a more complete answer.

Do you use your trailer for boondocking, or mostly at RV parks with full hook-ups?
What 12v appliances do you have and how much so you use them when not hooked up to 120 volts? How often do you use the trailer? How much do you want to spend?

The simple answer is: any 12v deep cycle battery that will fit in the box, the cheaper the better. This assumes you do not want to spend a lot of time on battery maintenance, and will replace the battery every 12 months.

[rluhr]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

I would suspect the "poster" would need to be several maybe one for each major body change?

That was exactly the idea. We were thinking up to 10 posters, one for each major "era". Unlike RJ's website and Shari's matrix, the posters would just be a general pictorial view of the major changes in Airstreams over the decades. It would leave the detailed differences (CA vs OH, Internat'l vs Land Yacht, etc) to the fine web resources that already exist.

The plan was one poster for each "era" or major body style. The exact dates are debatable -- and historians like Fred Coldwell would know much better than I which breaking points make sense -- but you can see how each poster could be part of a very collectible series going right up to the present day.

I still think it would be a valuable and fun resource for buyers of used and vintage Airstreams, but it would take a community effort to do it. It wouldn't answer the questions posed by Juel but I think it would be worthwhile.

[87MH]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

.... someone let me know when they find a LEAK FREE 70's vintage anything.

All:

Aaron (Wahoonc, above) posted an astute rhetorical question... the "hidden leak damage" is one that should take on more and more importance as the price of "vintage" units continues to climb. I would suspect that only trailers that had spent their entire lives either in desert conditions or that have been garaged full time truly have no water (rot) damage...if you look for it (damage), it (rot) will be there.

What to do?

I wish I had an easy answer - each time someone asks me in person, or posts here on the Forum ... "I am looking at a 19?? Whatever..., how much is it worth?".... I cringe - so many variables. I would suspect that the best way to truly establish the "soundness" of a trailer (or Motor Home) would be for the owner (soon to be seller) to document (both in writing and with pictures) any repair or inspection done to the trailer so the prospective purchaser has a bit more to go on that the seller's comment "everything is OK".

I did a one hour inspection on the '78 Sovereign prior to putting it on the hitch...and now, after removing all of the furniture for cleaning, have discovered that both the front AND rear plywood floors have issues around the "C" channel - the damage is not unexpected (remember the title of this post), I am only pointing out that the damage would not have been discovered without the removal of all of the furniture. The damage (rot) was situated in places impossible to access (see, feel, or stick with a pointy object) with the furniture in place...

Having said that, put yourself in the position of a seller - and a prospective purchaser wants to disassemble your pride and joy to look for "rot" that you (the seller) does not think is there and really does not want to find - a tough situation for both parties - but if I were a seller, I would not want just anybody removing furniture from my "ready to sell" trailer.

One solution (to assure that everything would be properly reassembled after inspection) would be for the prospective purchaser to pay for a certified AS repair station to disassemble and reassemble at the purchaser's cost...I would suspect a minimum of 10 hours at a minimum of $50 per hour. A pretty steep "entrance fee" just to determine if the trailer is sound.

Given Barkingspider's problems in finding an AS service facility to properly repair his front floor repair, and eventually having to do it himself, (http://www.airforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=11903)
I would really doubt the ability (at least here in the Houston area) of any given repair facility to be able to remove all of the furniture, inspect, and replace the furniture properly and with no collateral damage (put yourself in the shoes of a Shop Manager here - this is a job you are going to give to the "New Kid" in the shop - save the Gray-Beards for the "difficult" repair jobs).....


Again, what to do?

One possible solution would be for the seller to disassemble (for the purchaser) all of the furniture, at a fixed cost payable by the purchaser whether or not a sale ensures – this would allow the purchaser to investigate “hidden” areas, and would insure to the seller that all will be reassembled to the seller’s satisfaction. The cost of the teardown and inspection would have to be born by the purchaser, and written off as part of the “cost of purchase” – just another part of the cost of travel/inspection/hauling inherent in the purchase of a trailer.

In summation, everyone, (especially Newbies), should be aware of probable hidden damage in “Vintage” trailer purchases, and adjust perceived value accordingly.

[wahoonc]

Dennis,
Very well put!
We knew we had rear end floor damage in our unit and negotiated the price accordingly. However! we were not aware of the front end rot, until I pulled the gaucho to do some metal repairs to the gaucho frame, that was when we discovered rot right at the edge of the interior wall, further investigation and removal of the interior panels revealed that the two main hold down bolts were rusted; one was completely sheared off. The visible damage prior to removing the interior fixtures and panels was minimal and limited to a few missing rivets and some minor mis-alignment of the panels in one area near the hitch. Another hint that I mis-interperted was the corrosion on the belly pan at the seams. The unit had spent time near the coast and I made the assumption that was where the corrosion came from, it actually came from the inside where the water had been running along the frame to the belly pan seams. We were also not aware of any active leaks at the time of purchase but discovered several as the repairs went along, including one that I am still tracking down in the front window area. Another item that showed up was the "cuts" at the frame outriggers in the underwrap behind the banana wraps, again a concealed item that can only be seen by partial disassembly. Poor PO maintenance or lack of maintenance led to most of the issues I have been dealing with. Another item that was partially missed was the ungodly amount of silver silicone used to seal everything in sight. It looks like parabond, until you dig at it. If I were to purchase another unit with this amount of silicone on it, I would be very wary of a multitude of leaks and demand a reduction in price.
Another option that comes to mind would be to take the unit and have one of the new Leak Testers ( the one that pressurizes the unit) used on it with the understanding that I get to observe the entire process. These seem to cost in the $150-$250 range based on size of trailer and locale. This might be a selling point if the seller is interested in providing a clean bill of health for the unit. Other than that I don't know of any way to locate hidden problems, other than by dissasembly. It also helps to know the real history of the unit. I would be willing to pay more for a unit with a full documented history than one with a unknown or partial history...like mine.

Aaron

[Stefrobrts]

I don't think history helps all that much. My trailer came from a very nice, airstream-savvy couple who were members of the WBCCI and used the trailer extensively over the seven years they owned it. He thought he had fixed all the rot there was in the floors, and didn't hestiate to tell me about his work. Still, there was more to find, and leaks to fix, and now a major floor repair.

My hubby says if you think you are getting a deal on a vintage airstream, let's say really nice Caravels are going for $10k, and you find one for $6k, be mentally prepared to put the other $4k in it, and probably soon if you're going to actually use the trailer a lot. Heck, I say if you buy one for $10k, you might still have to put another $4k in it - ask Gary and janet about that! Maybe the rule should be that if you buy a vintage unit, be prepared for a further $5k investment and then you won't be shocked when it happens, and pleasantly surprised if it doesn't!

When I had my restored vintage corvette an old 'vette guy gave me this advice "When winter comes, park it in the garage with the window down a crack, and everytime you go by, slip whatever money's in your wallet in the window. Then when spring comes you'll have the money saved up for whatever it needs done this year!" Maybe not bad advice for vintage Airstreams too

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

...
When I had my restored vintage corvette an old 'vette guy gave me this advice "When winter comes, park it in the garage with the window down a crack, and everytime you go by, slip whatever money's in your wallet in the window. Then when spring comes you'll have the money saved up for whatever it needs done this year!" Maybe not bad advice for vintage Airstreams too

In my case; and I would suspect many others we may just need to dump our entire paychecks
But I knew it when I bought it...the only thing that comes to mind that was a worse money pit was my British Sports Cars

Aaron

[Stefrobrts]

Yeah, most of the vette people I met had a lot more in their wallets than I did! Part of the reason I decided that game was too rich for my blood, sent my vette away to live with some other millionaire in LA, maybe he can afford the upkeep!

[TroutStream]

The reasons we bought a vintage (1970) A/S were:

2 couples we knew that had nearly brand new SOB's experienced major water damage. One 4 year old trailer needed 6k worth of non warranteed repairs. Another 1 year old SOB needed the whole front end replaced, thankfully for them that was warranteed work. They told me they noticed bad smells right from the start if you can believe it.

I went to look at used SOB's and told the salesman I was freaking about leaking and nothing he said assured me that the above incidents were isolated. I even had one guy tell me that you should look to get a new trailer every 4 years!!! The interiors of the SOB's were designed to be as light as possible (read cheap). The particle board interiors are like sponges with moisture. I'm sure there are some SOB's that are much higher quality but not in my price range!

Thankfully for me, my wife loved the A/S style and we then searched only for Vintage A/S.

When I first stepped into our 34 year old trailer I could tell from the smell that any leaks were minor as there was no musty smell. This in a trailer that had been sitting for 10 years.

We spent 5k on it and will have spent probably another 5 by the time we are finished every thing we want to do. But already we can use the trailer and spent 3 wonderful weeks in it this summer.

We are proud to own an American classic with timeless design, and quality construction (solid wood/plywood vs particle board). I can sleep at night knowing our trailer was designed to shed water (not pool it on the roof until it finds a way in).

Ken.

[Hippo]

I am with you all the way with an old Airstream. Ours is a 1975. Did some restoring on the inside. Still have to do a full polish outside. Last week I was out camping at the beach. Our trailer was the oldest unit in the camp ground. It is a joy to hook up and everything works. A guy 2 spaces away had a brand new Bambi 19' their first trip. It was pretty. Mine is broke in so scratches don't hurt me. The AS pulls like a dream on the road. It took me 30 years before I could afford an AS.
Chuck

[Cedars]

I am SOOO glad this thread rose to the top of the pile again!
The premise is great. Has anything been done to bring it to fruition, or will it wait for the lazy (read that as winter) season?
ANd will Shari update her Matrix, up to maybe, 1985 or later? Will anyone mention the time periods Airstream was owned by which company? Such as, what ARE the Beatrice years?

Elizabeth in Iowa

[InsideOut]

Originally Posted by Cedars

ANd will Shari update her Matrix, up to maybe, 1985 or later?

No plans at this time. I'm not familiar with the newer models and differences and these are alot easier to track down information on.

I created the Matrix selfishly for myself...and personally, my interest in model differences drops off after the 60's...sorry!

Shari

[InsideOut]

Originally Posted by Cedars

Will anyone mention the time periods Airstream was owned by which company? Such as, what ARE the Beatrice years?

Elizabeth in Iowa

The Beatrice years were from December 1967 through sometime in 1979 when Thor purchased the company. For the full history, check out this History page from the Airstream website.

Shari

[Hippo]

Beatrice made our 1975 trailer. I don't know about other years.
Chuck

[reynolds431]

i would like to see a link in the site to an agreed to discription page (ie should we call it driver vs. passenger side or street v. curb left v. right or hitch v. lav)
is it a lav or a head
galley or kitchen
and agreed disciptions of windows (small, medium, large, thoes small ones with the internal shades on the upper curve are called what?)
i have been a bicycle mechanic my working life and it bothers me that i don't have the lexicon for AS's that i do for bikes
descriptions need to be clear from reguardless of interior or exterior configuration (ie on ships port v. starbord)
on bicycles every bike has a bottom bracket that is the bearings that provide for turning motion for the cranks and pedals
every bike has a head tube but how many of you know what i am talking about
thoes of you that have no clue what i mean whe i say "head tube" are like me at times when talking about AS's, hearing and speaking only gibberish(i am getting tired of hearing "Oh, you mean...")
maybe i have missed it and the bulk of material in the arcives is not getting me to the terms i need to feel comfortable talking about what i see
i just wish that the site had a general vocab section is what this boils down to
also this would provide for a lot of polling questions for the site

sheechless
matt

[Stefrobrts]

Maybe it's just the nature of the beast that there are so many different kinds of trailers, and so many different configurations, that there are no standard names for many things. Although streetside and curbside are pretty standard, I don't think there's any nomenclature for the different sizes of windows, though the ones up high with the sliders are called 'vista views' I think (but that's just because that's what the marketing dept decided to put in the catalog), and the ones with slats of glass that tilt out to open up are called jalosey (probably spelled wrong). I don't think people agree on calling it a head or a lav (we call it the bath), or the galley vs the kitchen. But see, names aren't that important, because if you're talking about the lav or the head or the bath, people will probably know what you mean. Likewise, if you say, those windows up high with the slider, we probably know what you mean, or can guess with further information.

Plus of course trailer people would hate to settle these things once and for all, because they like to sit around the campfire and hash these things out late at night over beers

[crestonrv]

as a rv tec with 35 years in the bus. you made the correct call.i've been a as fan since my teens and have owned several and never had a leaker.though whatch out for any as that has been reskined due to hail or accident as the may not be true as are sealed from the inside during manufacture an this is not the case in an aftermarket repair.