Ohio Design Thesis - Resto/Redesign

[rmpray]

Yup...number one rule in life...if you are goona sleep in it you ought to do whatever it takes to make it fit you. Old boats, old trailers, old cars...I love to see them prestine and originally restored...but there are lots of restored rigs out there...and if they are factory. Nothing wrong at all with building your rig to stand out! Yes, one want's to be sure the structure is not compromised, but style, layout and finish...even windows...it ought to talk to the owner. Picture "Extreme Homes" showing off a perfectly restored seventy three ranch...sleep time...

Frame off folks...keep with the plywood, but if you can use epoxy fire rated ply and you'll probably not need to replace again!

Sorry for the ramble...an idea does not have to be good for me to like it

rob

[RedSHED]

Some thoughts. Probably not helpful but...
Power requirements: You need power for...

• Reading lights.
• Some help with making or distributing heat

LED's are the obvious light source.

You'll note the absence of water distribution. We're used to electric water pumps, and we kind of take them for granted, but why not something like this (from a really quick google):solar or hand powered water pump

Water heaters are nice, but my family lived in South America for a couple of years without one. And those of us who've lived out of a tent for 3-4 weeks at a time are puzzled by the "400 lb of batteries" concept.

As far as personal evacuation... The sailboat guys go around the world without a ton of batteries, and nobody moons the sea in a storm I don't think. Another quick google: Zenith Model
a crummy with a hand pump.

Solar is a neat idea, especially if power requirements are kept in check. Even then, how about coupling it with a wind generator. There are a number of days with wind but no sun, or with sun but no wind, or with a little of each. Within the scope of the project, the wiring for both systems could be included, and a provision made for stowing the turbine.

I was thinking about the subfloor too... is it really structural? It might be.. either way, I've always thought that'd be an interesting place for some marine ply covered with WEST epoxy. You can get various finishes on the ply, such as teak, or whatever you'd want to use for a deck. Deck = floor. At least mostly.

Oh well, I'm sure you'd mostly thought of this sort of thing, but it costs me nothing to type it up

[Cursh]

looked into the trailer again today - I still have a black water tank that seems to be in good working order.
(funny the things you don't look for when someone tells you it isn't there)

I sat in the space and "felt out" the floor lay out and it feels really good - The huge pluss is that the Oven - refridgerator - and wood stove are all basically sitting on top of the axles.

We (my mechanic and I) mentally moved the entire layout around a couple of times. but ended up basically back where we started.

I took some interior pictures for me to start doing some photoshop work around, and I think everything is going to work out quite nicely.

I also looked at the frame and the only place I can find rust is the weight brace at the front door.

My concerns over the towability of this is probably low on the list of my concerns.

I don't suspect it will be finished by my road trip (probably have power and water at the most) and that is really the only time I would have enough time to move the thing all over the country.

After that - in a perfect world, Bebe and I would migrate like birds away from the cold weather, but that is being hopeful.

I'm sure my job and life will catch up to me at some point. and keep me in one spot.

Anyway - I am very very excited about this project and it looks like I have until the end of february to research extensively, so I should know loads more by then.

I will probabyl post design concepts in here from time to time, but this thread will probably be pretty dead until march.

[lewster]

Cursh,

I've just read this entire tome, and I won't add anything to it that has already been said, as I'm not of a 'pile it on' mentality.

As far as the interior, you can do whatever but keep in mind that weight distribution is a key element of why Airstreams tow so well.

Oh, and speaking of towing...your statement "My concerns over the towability of this is probably low on the list of my concerns.".....well this really concerns ME!

You have already had a near death experience trying to tow this thing when you bought it. I would have to surmise that the brakes are worthless, the bearings shot, your axel is over, AND THIS IS NOT A CONCERN OF YOURS????

If you plan on towing your project, regardless of it's interior state, the above MUST BE ADDRESSED!!!! ..........or you WILL be a hazard on the road. Not just to yourself....but to the general motoring public as well.

Please believe me when I tell you that this is not a criticism, but a fact that you should consider FIRST!!!!!...... especially since you are talking about traveling with your GF to beat the winter(s).

If you still believe that you can tow this trailer anywhere you like in it's present state, PLEASE POST YOUR ITINERARY SO I WON'T BE IN AN AREA NEAR YOU.!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your indulgence

[3Ms75Argosy]

Another thought about solar is to use a tripod that you set up after you park... not permently mounted but rather portable. I did see a rally member just use a crate to lean a panel against to charge the ol battery. Seemed to work fine.
Good luck!
Marc

[pcasa]

I freaked out when I saw your A4 totaled. I have been reading these posts for almost a year in preparation for towing my soon-to-be restored 16' Caravel. I've been an Audi person for 10 years now, and the only Audi's rated for towing are the allroad and the Q7. I have an allroad which has a 3300 lb. rating - and I'm still a little nervous.

I feel sorry for your poor Avant ... research is a good thing.

[Cursh]

my thought on solar was to utilize the vintage awning (probably get 3 panels there).

All that would require would be for me to construct the Awning support with wind loads in mind, but that shouldn't be much of a task considering the rest of the project

leaning the solar panel against a crate (or a tripod) makes me nervous because PV panels aren't exactly built ford tough. As a younger person I will be spending a considerable amount of time away from my home working and such, and would hate to come home to $3000 worth of solar panels ruined and strewn across the yard.


I am going to preface this by saying that I am not in any way condoning my own actions or would I encourage anyone to make the same mistakes that I made - towing with an A4 with the available market hitches was and is a terrible idea

As far as towing is concerned I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I am the only person who has experience towing an airstream with an A4 Avant. (in questionable towing conditions)

There is a company in canada outfitting Jetta Wagons with the TDi engine to tow a new bambi. (which they have been doing without issue)

Just to throw out numbers the new bambi weighs minimum 2800lbs
The 2004 jetta wagon TDi weighs 3200 has 100hp and 177lbs tq and is front wheel drive.

My A4 Avant weighs in at 3500lbs has 220hp - 260lbs tq and is AWD

The audi had more than sufficient breaking power to easily stop the 1300lbs behind it, and in no way let the trailer control it. I am confident that with an appropriate hitch system installed (in adition to an EBC) my avant could easily and safely pull a new bambi. (just as its cousin the jetta wagon is already doing today.)

The concern now is going to be with the weight of my completed trailer.

I will never again put my safari behind my Audi without doing sufficient research, and preforming the appropriate modifications to both the trailer and the car.

[Cursh]

Sorry - after doing some more reserach I had to laugh



If someone is willing to insure a company that is doing this . . . then I am going to go out on a limb and say that they might be able to put my A4 in front of a wimpy 22ft'r

=)

[2airishuman]

hi crush

solar panels mounted on tripods, tilted against crates or using other auxillary stands do work...

and the advantage is u can park the trailer in shade but still have solar...

so marc's suggest IS worth more consideration than u've given it so far...

i don't really get your 'awning' idea but putting them on top of the awning or otherwise attached to the awning isn't wise, actually the idea is very naive.

even leaving the awnings, main patio awning, out all day when away has issues.

wind happens quickly. they are made to withstand some but, unattended awnings often have bad endings....

you really are a LONG way from understanding the towing issues...

i've owned audis for 30 years and even towed with a few avants...

bike trailers, utility trailers, small sail boats and so on...

yes the a4 has good brakes but without trailer brakes on an rv you do NOT have control...

many many many rv/trailer accidents are a result of great tow vehicle brakes and poor/no trailer brakes...

this is all really well documented, painfully proven physics and everything!

so i'm not gonna explain it here.

you also don't understand the 'towing specifications' as most vehicle vendors list them...

again go read it's all there and we virtually all agree to the basics...

as an example the 'towing capacity' whatever it is...is REDUCED by the cargo/people/options IN the tow vehicle.

in other words a vehicle that lists '3500lb towing' reduces that figure by every POUND in the vehicle...

there are exceptions to this (the t'-rex platform) but u need to learn the general truths well to understand the exceptions.

in your early note you reported the 'speed' at which you were driving and implied it was 'slow'...

well again sorry bud but newbies towing at 50 or 55 or 60 are going rocket fast...

that's why the sh!t hits the fan so quickly while towing....

yes the canadian guys can fabricate a 'custom receiver' welded to the a4 unibody platform...

but you'll also need to buy the 3000$ hitch (which weight 250lbs) and promise never to go over 55 while towing...

oh yea and move to canada or otherwise jack your insurance liability issues...

i can see the force is strong in u but towing under canadian law and usa liability are way different.

for pcasa (the member considering towing with the allroad) the big issue is audi's reciever attachment/strenght and FRONTAL resistance/c.o.g. for a travel trailer...

a boat, or utility or popup trailer behind the allroad is MUCH different than a raised box (even one shaped like an a/s)

the allroad is a wonderful, powerful, great braking utility vehicle, but their is NO way i'd use one for towing an a/s...

perhaps 10 mile trips to the local park, or in europe where travel trailer specs/design and towing is different...

but NOT on north american interstates...not even if the audi and a/s were FREE...

again i've owned both audis and airstreams for 30 years...

cheers
2air'

[Cursh]

Originally Posted by lewster

Cursh,

As far as the interior, you can do whatever but keep in mind that weight distribution is a key element of why Airstreams tow so well.

Oh, and speaking of towing...your statement "My concerns over the towability of this is probably low on the list of my concerns.".....well this really concerns ME!

I guess you didn't notice that in my experience with towing, having an unevenload is incredibly manageable (example having close to 50% of the weight left of center)

Originally Posted by lewster

You have already had a near death experience trying to tow this thing when you bought it. I would have to surmise that the brakes are worthless, the bearings shot, your axel is over, AND THIS IS NOT A CONCERN OF YOURS????
I am sorry to have misled you, what I mean't was that I won't be towing on a weekily basis and therefor can deal with a slower trip once or twice a year

If you plan on towing your project, regardless of it's interior state, the above MUST BE ADDRESSED!!!! ..........or you WILL be a hazard on the road. Not just to yourself....but to the general motoring public as well.

Please believe me when I tell you that this is not a criticism, but a fact that you should consider FIRST!!!!!...... especially since you are talking about traveling with your GF to beat the winter(s).

I don't know what I have said or done that led to to believe that I have any intention of towing the trailer in its current state at all, much less with my girlfriend anywhere near it.

Originally Posted by lewster

If you still believe that you can tow this trailer anywhere you like in it's present state, PLEASE POST YOUR ITINERARY SO I WON'T BE IN AN AREA NEAR YOU.!!!!!!!!!!!

as I said, I don't know what I said that led you to believe that I would tow the airstream again in its current state, but even so - If you would kindly send me a pm or an email I will add you to the growing list of people who will be informed of my trailers every move.

Originally Posted by lewster

Thanks for your indulgence

anytime




2Airsishuman

i understand I have worlds to learn and am dedicating the next 3 months to reserach. - thank you for your insight and direction for my research.

[lewster]

My good fellow,

It is your own words in you own post that led me to take finger to keyboard:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
Cursh,

As far as the interior, you can do whatever but keep in mind that weight distribution is a key element of why Airstreams tow so well.

Oh, and speaking of towing...your statement "My concerns over the towability of this is probably low on the list of my concerns.".....well this really concerns ME!


I guess you didn't notice that in my experience with towing, having an unevenload is incredibly manageable (example having close to 50% of the weight left of center)


Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
You have already had a near death experience trying to tow this thing when you bought it. I would have to surmise that the brakes are worthless, the bearings shot, your axel is over, AND THIS IS NOT A CONCERN OF YOURS????
I am sorry to have misled you, what I mean't was that I won't be towing on a weekily basis and therefor can deal with a slower trip once or twice a year

If you plan on towing your project, regardless of it's interior state, the above MUST BE ADDRESSED!!!! ..........or you WILL be a hazard on the road. Not just to yourself....but to the general motoring public as well.

Please believe me when I tell you that this is not a criticism, but a fact that you should consider FIRST!!!!!...... especially since you are talking about traveling with your GF to beat the winter(s).


I don't know what I have said or done that led to to believe that I have any intention of towing the trailer in its current state at all, much less with my girlfriend anywhere near it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
If you still believe that you can tow this trailer anywhere you like in it's present state, PLEASE POST YOUR ITINERARY SO I WON'T BE IN AN AREA NEAR YOU.!!!!!!!!!!!


as I said, I don't know what I said that led you to believe that I would tow the airstream again in its current state, but even so - If you would kindly send me a pm or an email I will add you to the growing list of people who will be informed of my trailers every move.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
Thanks for your indulgence



anytime

"Oh, and speaking of towing...your statement "My concerns over the towability of this is probably low on the list of my concerns.".....well this really concerns ME! "

This is the statement of yours that I speak of. As I said, it should be at the top of the list, since it doesn't really matter what you do to the interior if the trailer is not road-worthy (like yours).

I've said what I had to say, made my contribution, and the rest is up to you.............

[RedSHED]

Tow ratings for the same vehicles are different in Europe vs the US.
A lot of this is probably due to the lawyers per square foot thing, but a lot of it too is no doubt due to the lower speed limits...
If I read it correctly this is something like 60mph MAX in the UK and 50MPH (80KPH) on Germany's fabled autobahn.

What I'm getting at is this. I bet that a person who is careful and keeps it around 50 MPH can get away with a lot less tow vehicle than one who drives 60 or especially 70.

My own silly experience is towing 30ft of sailplane trailer (big slab, 6 ft high) with an Accord. I kept it at 50 - no problem. 55 was not good if there was any wind. With an F-150 it was good to 80.
Many of the comments directed at Cursh have been, in my opinion, out of line, or very nearly so. The car experienced structural failure - a failure no different than a hitch on a Chevy ripping loose. It stayed upright. It did not tumble, nor did it ignite the atmosphere.

As far as Cursh's schedule and priorities... unless he's getting a grade on roadworthiness instead of interior design, he absolutely has to bump that down. I'm sure of all people he has the least desire to unglue another TV, so I'm also sure he'll attend to the roadworthiness in due time.
Quite frankly him towing that with an Audi at 60 doesn't give me near the willies as some of the 15000-30000 lb motorcoaches and toyboxes pulled along at 70mph by people without a CDL.

I feel better now, thanks

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Cursh

My A4 Avant weighs in at 3500lbs has 220hp - 260lbs tq and is AWD

The audi had more than sufficient breaking power to easily stop the 1300lbs behind it, and in no way let the trailer control it. I am confident that with an appropriate hitch system installed (in adition to an EBC) my avant could easily and safely pull a new bambi.

It is "quite possible"?? your Audi could make a very good TV for your Airstream but I wouldn't attempt it without professional assistance. Your hitch designer/ builder/ installer, let you down!

This is what a pro set up looks like (see post #21)....

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post492246

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

It is "quite possible"?? your Audi could make a very good TV for your Airstream but I wouldn't attempt it without professional assistance. Your hitch designer/ builder/ installer, let you down!

Road Ruler,

Any 1957 vehicle has a frame... today's unibody cars do not have a frame. The structure of the vehicle is not designed to carry a load other than in the passenger and stowage areas... no matter how good your hitch builder is.

Wally demonstrated that an Airstream can be towed by a bicycle... but that doesn't mean it's safe to do it to get from here to there.

BTW, thanks for the Vintage tow vehicle link... I think they are a very cool "accessory"

[Arteacherz]

Perhaps, in the interest of research, it would be a good idea to rent,or borrow, a white box travel trailer that looks like your grandma's bedroom inside and learn all the workings of that trailer. Park it in an uninteresting place, or beside your AS, and live in it for a week. Take lots of notes. Make lots of sketches. Live with the layout, cheesy cabinets, big tele, and frilly window treatment until you're ready to scream. At the end of the week (my prediction) you will know exactly what is good and what is bad. This is how many of us came to AS in the first place. Have fun and enjoy the contrast.
Getting total clarity about what you aren't willing to settle for will speed the learning curve a lot.
Good luck with your project. Looking forward to more. Stick with the stuff you can do well and leave the scary stuff to the pros.

Bill

"If your ship is sinking, a piano top might make a serviceable life preserver. If you are designing a life preserver, it won't look like a piano top."
-R. Buckminster Fuller

"Onward through the fog!" -Oat Willie

[Cursh]

Thanks for all of the Discrouagement and Encouragement (both equally useful at this stage.

I found a fun little post on here being a weak link in my "spindles"
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...ure-38944.html

And the first google link brought me this
Dura Torque Henschen Axles Order


$800 seems like a steal for an entire new system - but I haven't read through the posts pro or con this company yet. (and their prices seem a bit odd, I was looking for something rated to two tons minimum, looks like I will have to give them a call.)


Bill - That is a fantastic idea (renting borrowing an old whatever trailer and living in it) I will look into what that will involve.

[2airishuman]

new axles are a great idea... essential really.

and IF u don't wanna use henschens investigate the dexter options available...

increasing axle capacity much (>10-20%) beyond the frame/shell parameters isn't recommended by the experts.

it is claimed that this will beat the shell and structure too much.

IF you are gonna keep the trailer light, select the proper ratings

and IF you are gonna add mass capacity to the unit, the frame needs to be STRONGER...

so many issues are interrelated with these wingless travelers...

cheers
2air'

[Cursh]

My Buddy (welds) was amazed at the lack of triangulation in the frame and was begging me to let him weld in some bracing.

He claimed it would greatly improve the strength of the frame without adding much weight at all.

is this something I should let him take a crack at?

The only thing that should add weight are
Real Toilette Bowl
Batteries
Poly Flooring

Sales at Can Am looked up my trailers original weight and quoted me at 3500lbs. I'm confident I can keep myself to under two tons. dry weight, but that would put me much higher than that with water, sewage, and my stuff (figure 200lbs of pots - pans - clothing - food - toiletries)

[BIGED52]

Cursh, Have someone (or you) check the frame for the following: Bent members, rust thru areas, outriggers separated from frame, and broken welds. If all these items check out okay there is no good reason to add any bracing to the existing framework. It was designed to flex and move. Clean all the surface rust off the frame and paint it with POR15. That will protect it from any further rust damage. While you are doing that you can check out all the plywood subfloor for soft spots from the bottom and top, to see just how extensive the replacement of the plywood will be. If you are really to do a shell off then the best thing you could do is to replace the entire floor plywood with marine grade 5/8ths or 3/4 inch plywood. then after the frame is painted with the POR15 you can reattach the floor to the frame. Then replace any bad c or j channel with new and reattach your shell with new bolts, rivets, and stainless steel screws. THEN... and only then should you worry what the interior looks like. Then you need to upgrade/replace plumbing and electric wiring as needed. Reinstalling new interior aluminum panels. At that point you can set-up for your tank(s) locations and add the cabinets, shower/toilet and sinks for your bath and galley areas. You will have to do cardboard mock-ups for any curved wall segments or bulkheads that need to go in for mounting cabinetry to. You will need the trim required to hold these items (with rivets) to the interior walls. Then your interior layout will come together. There are many more items you will need to research before your redesign will be complete but this will give you a basic idea what to consider and check out before you worry about an axle. That should figure nearly last in your list of items as it will need to be rated at approx. 5000# so as not to be too light a rating and possibly fail or too heavy a rating that could cause a very rough ride and do damage to the trailer. One of the last items should be to have the running gear aligned and balanced for the trailer when it is ready for road testing/camping/living. Hope this gets you started. Happy Trails, Ed

[Cursh]

I was thinking this over in my head - The Bicycle industry offers a variety of spacers for rear wheel applications that could accomidate the gapping in the floor. Would there be any negatives to installing these spacers over the frame bolts as a sort of fail safe in case of rot (as I understand it the plywood is holding up the shell, and when it rots the shell loses support)

Second question is about interior and the floor. I was under the impression that the interior lay out would effect the floor. I need to run plumbing under the floor correct? or is that completely wrong?

I was also wondering if there was any reason not to put things like my water pump and Inverter in the floor.

Thats all I have today.
(thanks ed )