Closed cell spray foam insulation?

[Ringoo7]

Has anyone tried spray foam insulation on an AS renovation?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Ringoo7

Has anyone tried spray foam insulation on an AS renovation?

The shell twists, destroying the foam.

Andy

[Ringoo7]

I find it hard to believe an AS twists enough to destroy spray in place foam. Wouldn't the skins show wrinkles and creases with that amount of twisting and flexing? I was more concerned with sweating.

[thomp]

Look at your number of posts and then look at at Andy's. I think I would trust Andy's answer if I was you.

[Ringoo7]

Originally Posted by thomp

Look at your number of posts and then look at at Andy's. I think I would trust Andy's answer if I was you.

I'm sure Andy, an Airstream dealer, has a wealth of knowledge. I generally like to get more than one opinion to base a decision on. I am exploring options on insulating a frame off restoration.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Ringoo7

I'm sure Andy, an Airstream dealer, has a wealth of knowledge. I generally like to get more than one opinion to base a decision on. I am exploring options on insulating a frame off restoration.

I didn't share an opinion with you, but I did try to share a "fact", which are part of my 47 years with Airstream.

An Airstream flexes because of it's "monocoque" design, just like an aircraft.

The flexing is small enough to damage the foam, but not large enough to damage the metal.

Airstream used it in some doors in 1969, and very quickly, discarded the idea.

Dometic used it in some reefer doors, long ago, and discarded it.

The foam, cannot take the twisting, or for that matter, the vibration.

But, as always, it's your choice.

Andy

[Protagonist]

Haven't used spray-in insulation on a trailer, but my office has used spray-in insulation on several metal shop buildings.

The insulation covers well IF you can spray it on directly; if you try to spray through an opening, coverage isn't so great. However, even the slightest impact causes it to flake off, so if you use it in a trailer, make sure you never hit a pothole.

Most spray-on insulation also tends to trap moisture, including condensation, and holds that moisture against the metal surface you're insulating. One reason we stopped using spray-on insulation is that we had to replace the metal building skins due to corrosion much sooner than if we had used some other kind of insulation.

[gloran]

I've read a lot of comments how it doesn't perform well in trailers and wondered why, because I had three different cargo vans done and was very happy with the results. I'am talking about the Urethane spray, it was quite durable. One of the advantages of the spray is that it eliminates condensation because it is directly applied to the surface not allowing moister to form on it. I would think it would lock everything in place not allowing the trailers to flex as much because it is quite strong. I never experienced flaking cracking or corrosion and this is over 28 plus years of ownership on three different vans driving in Michigan, and believe me we have potholes. There are some disavantages, if hit on the outside it dents more readily as it won't flex, and much more difficult to repair after an accident. My experience isn't with aluminum framing it might react differently.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by gloran

I've read a lot of comments how it doesn't perform well in trailers and wondered why, because I had three different cargo vans done and was very happy with the results. I'am talking about the Urethane spray, it was quite durable. One of the advantages of the spray is that it eliminates condensation because it is directly applied to the surface not allowing moister to form on it. I would think it would lock everything in place not allowing the trailers to flex as much because it is quite strong. I never experienced flaking cracking or corrosion and this is over 28 plus years of ownership on three different vans driving in Michigan, and believe me we have potholes. There are some disavantages, if hit on the outside it dents more readily as it won't flex, and much more difficult to repair after an accident. My experience isn't with aluminum framing it might react differently.

The spray-in insulation I'm familiar with isn't urethane foam. We didn't use urethane (or polyurethane) at our field sites due to numerous EPA complaints about its toxicity and the vapors it gives off from out-gassing. Being a Government agency, we have to take that sort of thing into account. As a private owner, you can make up your own mind. Aside from possible toxicity, urethane does have the advantes you cite.

If you use a urethane foam, ventilate to a fare-thee-well for as long as you can during and after installation, and if you get headaches or your eyes begin to feel like they've got sand in them while using the trailer, ventilate some more.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

I didn't share an opinion with you, but I did try to share a "fact", which are part of my 47 years with Airstream.

An Airstream flexes because of it's "monocoque" design, just like an aircraft.

The flexing is small enough to damage the foam, but not large enough to damage the metal.

Airstream used it in some doors in 1969, and very quickly, discarded the idea.

Dometic used it in some reefer doors, long ago, and discarded it.

The foam, cannot take the twisting, or for that matter, the vibration.

But, as always, it's your choice.

Andy

The FACTS are the types of foams and formulations have changed over the years.

Currently there are several types of spray on foams that will flex. Urethane being one of them. I suspect the one that was originally tried many years ago was a form of polyisocyanate which does not flex well at all.

Aaron

[Ringoo7]

That's what I'm looking for! What material did Airstream use in the doors that failed? How are modern airplanes insulated? The military has insulated planes with foam, what type? 44 years has seen quite a bit of material development. Is it time to revisit the idea? Fact is in 1969 a computer filled a large room, now I'm holding one in my hand.

[Belegedhel]

Try doing a search of the forums for "spray foam insulation" and permutations thereof. This topic has come up half a dozen times in the last few years.

[NJtoNC]

just to play devils advocate, Avion used spray foam insulation...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...eam-98513.html

[av8or]

Originally Posted by thomp

Look at your number of posts and then look at at Andy's. I think I would trust Andy's answer if I was you.

Easy. I thought that was fair question. I would not have guessed that the trailer twists enough to destroy the foam either. However, good explanation and good to know. Another thing to stuff into my "clue bag."

[Ringoo7]

One idea is to cover the sections between ribs with Mylar then spray foam to make form fitting panels eliminating the bond to the exterior skins. The panels could be removed for maintenance. This would eliminate the piece-mealing associated with rigid foam board insulation.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Ringoo7

One idea is to cover the sections between ribs with Mylar then spray foam to make form fitting panels eliminating the bond to the exterior skins. The panels could be removed for maintenance. This would eliminate the piece-mealing associated with rigid foam board insulation.

Excellent concept! Would it work with something other than Mylar? such as maybe Reynolds Wrap aluminum foil, which is a lot cheaper to buy?

[gloran]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

The spray-in insulation I'm familiar with isn't urethane foam. We didn't use urethane (or polyurethane) at our field sites due to numerous EPA complaints about its toxicity and the vapors it gives off from out-gassing. Being a Government agency, we have to take that sort of thing into account. As a private owner, you can make up your own mind. Aside from possible toxicity, urethane does have the advantes you cite.

If you use a urethane foam, ventilate to a fare-thee-well for as long as you can during and after installation, and if you get headaches or your eyes begin to feel like they've got sand in them while using the trailer, ventilate some more.

It sounds like your getting your foam insulations mixed up. Urethane foam doesn't have the problems you described with vapors and toxicity after installation. It has no formaldehydes and is safe with no vapors. It is the insulation that is most preferred in our area for new construction. It provides the tightest, highest R-Value per inch than any other insulation. I live in the home town of Dow Chemical Co, and they have their own brands of urethane spray foam on the market, no EPA issues in most installation situations. I say most because the EPA can find a problem with anything.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by gloran

It sounds like your getting your foam insulations mixed up. Urethane foam doesn't have the problems you described with vapors and toxicity after installation. It has no formaldehydes and is safe with no vapors. It is the insulation that is most preferred in our area for new construction. It provides the tightest, highest R-Value per inch than any other insulation. I live in the home town of Dow Chemical Co, and they have their own brands of urethane spray foam on the market, no EPA issues in most installation situations. I say most because the EPA can find a problem with anything.

You may be right; the more senior I get, the more "senior moments" I have.

But in my defense, I offer this:
Spray Polyurethane Foam (SPF) Home | Design for the Environment (DfE) | US EPA

I'm not enough of a chemist to know the difference between urethane and polyurethane, so the foam you cite may not be the same foam I cite.

[Aviator]

Current transport aircraft (airliners and business type) are insulated with blankets between the ribs. I am not sure what the material is, but it is not foam. The blankets allow the mechanics to easily move them out of the way when repairs are needed, then put them back.

It has been a couple of years since I last stopped over at the maintenance base, but that is what they use. I watched a show on the construction of the new B787 and it used the same blankets.

[av8or]

Originally Posted by Aviator

Current transport aircraft (airliners and business type) are insulated with blankets between the ribs. I am not sure what the material is, but it is not foam. The blankets allow the mechanics to easily move them out of the way when repairs are needed, then put them back.

It has been a couple of years since I last stopped over at the maintenance base, but that is what they use. I watched a show on the construction of the new B787 and it used the same blankets.

Yep. That's what is used in the 777.