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07-17-2018, 12:19 PM
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#1
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3 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Sandy
, Utah
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 229
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A message to quality critics
We no longer have our wonderful 25FB. Nine Grandkids changed our needs big time! Over the years I have read so many mean spirited posts about how Airstream did this and didn't do that and all sorts of complaints. Perhaps some are justified. I wanted to let the critics know how to really judge Airstream build quality and materials. Take a few days and go look at every supposed top of the line trailer out there. I mean really look at them. Take a flashlight and look inside of things. Study how they are built. You will be shocked when you start comparing how Airstream does things and how everyone else does things. We were absolutely amazed at the poor workmanship, fit and finish, and materials even in trailers costing 100K! You end up settling for the one that has the fewest defects. I wish you all well. And thank all of you who answered my many questions! I learned many things on this forum.
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07-17-2018, 12:43 PM
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#2
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3 Rivet Member
2016 23' International
1991 29' Excella
Chesapeake
, Virginia
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 100
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I agree!
Tom
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07-17-2018, 03:09 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1969 18' Caravel
Greenville
, whereEverIroam
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,409
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I remember using the same line of reasoning when trying to explain to Mom how my room was clean enough as is, especially when compared to my friend's room. To my astonishment, she remained unmoved by my dazzling logic.
Those in pursuit of excellence do not measure themselves against others, but against the infuriating standards of perfection, unattainable ideals, which, maddeningly, they know beforehand are unattainable. These insanely focused individuals are driven by unrelenting forces within that push the outward boundaries of the possible. They are the ones who rewrite the textbooks, smash the old records, and set new standards. They make folks afflicted with mere OCD seem like unshaven, disheveled slobs. The only thing worse than being close to someone like this is to be someone like this.
Take Steve Jobs, for instance; a man most who worked for him consistently testify as being a major A**, and yet, in the same breath also acknowledge they did the best work of their lives under him.
Great execs are usually their own worst critics, and in fact, are eager to hear the critical comments from their customers, because that tells them exactly where they can most effectively manage change to increase customer satisfaction, gain market advantage and improve the brand.
While some of the complaints here are from angry customers who feel betrayed, many of the comments I read here are from those who love and respect the Airstream brand, but are disappointed in the execution of the brand promise in their trailer, and would like to see that addressed so the brand does not whither and die. Far worse than hearing criticism is not to hear it.
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07-17-2018, 04:02 PM
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#4
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguyscott
. . .
While some of the complaints here are from angry customers who feel betrayed, many of the comments I read here are from those who love and respect the Airstream brand, but are disappointed in the execution of the brand promise in their trailer, and would like to see that addressed so the brand does not whither and die. Far worse than hearing criticism is not to hear it.
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" Far worse than hearing criticism is not to hear it."
Well said.
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07-17-2018, 04:18 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2012 Avenue Coach
Corpus Christi
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15
" Far worse than hearing criticism is not to hear it."
Well said.
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Yup! When I don't really care that much about something I had a bad experience with (restaurant, dentist, retail store) I usually just do not go back. They never get my money again, and they never know why.
We care about our Airstreams, and many fixes required are easy ones if Airstream is listening as they claim. I hope they'd rather hear from us, than not.
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07-17-2018, 05:58 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W
, New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguyscott
I remember using the same line of reasoning when trying to explain to Mom how my room was clean enough as is, especially when compared to my friend's room. To my astonishment, she remained unmoved by my dazzling logic.
Those in pursuit of excellence do not measure themselves against others, but against the infuriating standards of perfection, unattainable ideals, which, maddeningly, they know beforehand are unattainable. These insanely focused individuals are driven by unrelenting forces within that push the outward boundaries of the possible. They are the ones who rewrite the textbooks, smash the old records, and set new standards. They make folks afflicted with mere OCD seem like unshaven, disheveled slobs. The only thing worse than being close to someone like this is to be someone like this.
Take Steve Jobs, for instance; a man most who worked for him consistently testify as being a major A**, and yet, in the same breath also acknowledge they did the best work of their lives under him.
Great execs are usually their own worst critics, and in fact, are eager to hear the critical comments from their customers, because that tells them exactly where they can most effectively manage change to increase customer satisfaction, gain market advantage and improve the brand.
While some of the complaints here are from angry customers who feel betrayed, many of the comments I read here are from those who love and respect the Airstream brand, but are disappointed in the execution of the brand promise in their trailer, and would like to see that addressed so the brand does not whither and die. Far worse than hearing criticism is not to hear it.
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While I also appreciate the OP's post for what it is - I think this post by skyguyscott may be the best summary on this topic ever.
I love my trailer, have been fortunate to have few major problems with it, love the brand, consider myself an ambassador, but offer critiques because I do love the brand and care about it. Some are so deeply disconnected in their experience from their expectations, they seem to feel personally slighted - which is understandable given the strong emotional connection you can have with a brand like this.
Just because perfection isn't possible doesn't mean a company (or person) shouldn't strive for it...
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07-17-2018, 06:22 PM
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#7
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4 Rivet Member
1964 22' Safari
1993 25' Excella
Flagler Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 317
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hmmmmm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocco52
We no longer have our wonderful 25FB. Nine Grandkids changed our needs big time! Over the years I have read so many mean spirited posts about how Airstream did this and didn't do that and all sorts of complaints. Perhaps some are justified. I wanted to let the critics know how to really judge Airstream build quality and materials. Take a few days and go look at every supposed top of the line trailer out there. I mean really look at them. Take a flashlight and look inside of things. Study how they are built. You will be shocked when you start comparing how Airstream does things and how everyone else does things. We were absolutely amazed at the poor workmanship, fit and finish, and materials even in trailers costing 100K! You end up settling for the one that has the fewest defects. I wish you all well. And thank all of you who answered my many questions! I learned many things on this forum.
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very true statement !!!!!!
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07-18-2018, 08:41 AM
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#8
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2 Rivet Member
1988 34' Excella
Stanardsville
, Virginia
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 54
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Well stated, couldn't have said it better myself! Some of the totally unrealistic expectations make us realize some people are never happy and just like to complain. They should stay in motels and hotels.
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07-18-2018, 08:49 AM
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#9
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3 Rivet Member
1969 27' Overlander
Boise
, Idaho
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguyscott
I remember using the same line of reasoning when trying to explain to Mom how my room was clean enough as is, especially when compared to my friend's room. To my astonishment, she remained unmoved by my dazzling logic.
Those in pursuit of excellence do not measure themselves against others, but against the infuriating standards of perfection, unattainable ideals, which, maddeningly, they know beforehand are unattainable. These insanely focused individuals are driven by unrelenting forces within that push the outward boundaries of the possible. They are the ones who rewrite the textbooks, smash the old records, and set new standards. They make folks afflicted with mere OCD seem like unshaven, disheveled slobs. The only thing worse than being close to someone like this is to be someone like this.
Take Steve Jobs, for instance; a man most who worked for him consistently testify as being a major A**, and yet, in the same breath also acknowledge they did the best work of their lives under him.
Great execs are usually their own worst critics, and in fact, are eager to hear the critical comments from their customers, because that tells them exactly where they can most effectively manage change to increase customer satisfaction, gain market advantage and improve the brand.
While some of the complaints here are from angry customers who feel betrayed, many of the comments I read here are from those who love and respect the Airstream brand, but are disappointed in the execution of the brand promise in their trailer, and would like to see that addressed so the brand does not whither and die. Far worse than hearing criticism is not to hear it.
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Too bad almost nobody wants to actually pay for that level of excellence. If they followed this line of reasoning, AS would sell a few dozen trailers a year at prices the rest of us would laugh at.
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07-18-2018, 09:25 AM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2016 30' Classic
Lorton
, Virginia
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 689
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If most stick RV manufacturers are say a 2 out of 10 on the quality scale and Airstream is a 4 out of 10, it doesn't mean Airstream has good quality. It means Airstream has slightly better than deplorable quality.
I love how people always high-side on this topic. WHAT DO YOU WANT PERFECTION?
No, but there is a huge gap right now between "perfection" and what Airstream produces that could be filled.
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07-18-2018, 09:35 AM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Exactly!
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07-18-2018, 09:43 AM
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#12
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2 Rivet Member
2015 25' Flying Cloud
Fullerton
, California
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 36
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As a relatively new owner of an Airstream (just over two years) I have watched these forums carefully -- for a lot longer than I've owned my coach -- and have learned from so many of you. After a while it's pretty easy to spot those on these pages (SteveSueMac, Protagonist and others) who really love the brand, have experience and advice to share with others and area able to do so without coming off as mean, preachy or bitter. They have a gift and their willingness to share it with campers like you and me allow this forum to continue to be a place where we all can learn and improve our Airstream experience.
I agree with skyguyscott's assessment and I concur with the OP's post as well. I have owned other trailers and regularly go to the big RV shows -- the quality offered in other brands...well, you just can't say it's quality at all.
I hope Airstream continues to work on their QC and that more of us can smile and be proud of our trailers, vans and motorhomes on these forums and on the road. We are all approached when we're out camping by folks who want to admire our rigs and I bet the first thing out of our mouths isn't, "Let me tell you about this bad experience when I had to replace my noisy water pump..."
So here's to all of you who have made the Airstream experience more enriching for me and my family -- THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!!!!
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07-18-2018, 10:19 AM
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#13
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2 Rivet Member
1973 29' Ambassador
Woodward
, Oklahoma
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 48
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I have owned many trailers in my lifetime. For MANY years, I bought a depressed trailer during the winter, fixed and revamped problem areas, took it on my annual week long vacation with the family, and then sold it before end of camping season. I always wanted an Airstream, but could never find one that fit my economic spectrum. I lucked into my current trailer when it was only 35 years old (10 years ago) and have been extremely enamored with my purchase. Quality can be measured directly, IMO, by longevity. Show me another 45 year old trailer of any brand that still is, in most ways, original and campable and I may be otherwise enamored and impressed. Most later model quality problems seem to stem from unnecessary circuit boards and electronics, IMO. It takes a few minutes to manually light my original refrigerator and hot water heater, but simplicity does have longevity advantages.
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07-18-2018, 10:21 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 591
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Cost of Quality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zybane
If most stick RV manufacturers are say a 2 out of 10 on the quality scale and Airstream is a 4 out of 10, it doesn't mean Airstream has good quality. It means Airstream has slightly better than deplorable quality.
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I agree with Zybane and Skyguyscott. Comparing Airstream quality to other trailers is not good logic. Thor executives should "...manage change to increase customer satisfaction, gain market advantage, and improve the brand."
Most studies I've seen document that a good quality assurance program costs 10-15% of operation costs, which is almost always offset by the reduction in rework and warranty repairs. Good QA should lead to manufacturing process improvements, such as using robots, which further reduce production costs and improve quality.
If Airstream is a 4 now, they could rapidly be at least an 8 with management that is interested. AS can do this and remain price competitive in their niche marketplace.
73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
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07-18-2018, 10:24 AM
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#15
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Dazed and Confused
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,805
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Now if Airstream would start using Coosa board as a subfloor we'd be well on our way to getting rid of most of the complaints.
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.
“It’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose your own.” "Harry S Truman"
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07-18-2018, 10:30 AM
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#16
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2 Rivet Member
2015 19' Flying Cloud
Ashland
, Kentucky
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 88
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Not perfection but . . .
The issue as I see it with AS are multiple: Airstream as a 'Brand' has a loyal following (almost to a fault). Yes, they are the coolest campers out there, BUT . . . On average, they cost twice and sometimes 3 times the cost of something comparable (and we're talking basic camper here (bed, shower, dining, kitchen, etc) Let's leave construction and styling out of the equation for the sake of a discussion, we all know that some OB's are better built than others and we'll presume our members can look and determine which ones are better on their own.
My issue with AS cost is that if you pay at least twice up front, then surely they (the AS Gods) can take just a little more time and double, triple check all systems and make sure they are 100% nominal. They claim to be selling the best of the best, but in the end, AS is just another OB when it comes to quality (I'm referring to actual build quality and mechanical/delivery issues, not construction materials here).
I've looked at and purchased another brand recently (with a monster slide) that looks cool and is very well built. We use it whenever the grandkids take a trip with us. Sure it's not as cool as an AS, but it sure comes close and has way, way more room. Also, priced at under $30K new, I could afford to have a second camper . . .
We've often talked about buying a larger AS and even looked at a few (new & used) but at the end of the day, you just don't get the value to justify the extra cost. And that's when we stopped drinking the Kool-aid and started looking at things objectively. Sure shiny is sexy, but it's just not 'worth' 3 times the cost!
Just some random thoughts from someone that has veered off the AS path.
__________________
One Long Shot
Beastie - 19'FC
The Big Beast - GMC Yukon w/Max Tow Package
Held together with the Husky Centerline Hitch
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07-18-2018, 10:41 AM
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#17
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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I just made ours PERFECT. 👍😂👍
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
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07-18-2018, 10:46 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Maybe a lot of people should just jump past Airstream and jump straight into a Million dollar or three million dollar luxury coach right?
Even rocket scientists have experienced “major malfunctions”. #JustSayin
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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07-18-2018, 10:51 AM
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#19
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1 Rivet Member
2014 Interstate Ext. Coach
downers grove
, IL
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zybane
If most stick RV manufacturers are say a 2 out of 10 on the quality scale and Airstream is a 4 out of 10, it doesn't mean Airstream has good quality. It means Airstream has slightly better than deplorable quality.
I love how people always high-side on this topic. WHAT DO YOU WANT PERFECTION? No, but there is a huge gap right now between "perfection" and what Airstream produces that could be filled.
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First of all, all good points.
IMO, even successful vendors don't often strive for true perfection because of diminishing returns from incremental quality pursuits. Higher quality could lead to higher prices which likely means fewer buyers in a segment that needs high unit volume.
I'm very happy with the quality of my AI. I'd give it 8.5/10.0. I compared it to Winnebago and other vendors before choosing to spend six figures. But I wouldn't have been willing to spend an extra dime for higher quality. I don't think the masses demand utopia and they don't want to pay more. SkyGuyScott's Steve Jobs analogy is interesting but I think it is more to illustrate the value of innovation, not quality. Apple didn't become a trillion dollar company because it optimized the quality of the Mac.
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07-18-2018, 11:09 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Here is a point of perspective. While there are things that Airstream could have done better when they built my trailer in 1972, it still survived to my purchase forty years later, and it still sold worn out and used for a good chunk of its original purchase price. I say that’s pretty damn good. It’s easy to pick things apart, and its harder to see that the glass is mostly full?
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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