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3Ms75Argosy · 12-12-2006, 06:04 PM

I was reading Rich Luer's blog today, and read with interest that his trailer's Kodiak disk brake pads were history after 15,000 miles of travel.

While life expectancy was a bit on the shorter side of what I imagined, what really got me was when he talked about replacement parts. Those calipers and pads are the ones off of a Chevy Celebrety (sp)..... maybe a 3,800 pound car?

How is that adequate to stop a 7,500 pound trailer? Maybe the disks are larger and thicker, but the stopping is still done by the same size caliper and pad. Think of trying to stop a disk with just your index finger and your thumb..... you'd stop it faster by using all the fingers (and one more thumb if you have it

) of your hand, right? If more momentum (i.e. a larger weight being stopped) is used, it would take even longer to stop it, correct?

Are the Dexter's the same?
Marc

2airishuman · 12-12-2006, 06:25 PM

hi marc

have you checked out the kodiak link...info on size is there....

Kodiak Trailer Components - Kodiak Offers Two Types of Rotors and Disc Brakes:

my understanding is there are 3 flavors of pads...organic, metallic and ceramic.

i've got the kodiaks too, but mine were factory equipment. rich and many others have dealer installed sets...

it is the same equipment however.

i've posted this info else where, but at 31k i was planning to replace my pads as well with ceramics...

i had been told many were expended at 5-10k...

the oems were removed and inspected by the mechanic and me..

only about 2 mm of wear. virtually none.
i couldn't tell any difference between them and the brand new ones in the box...no edge decay or cracking either...
keep in mind thats 31,000+miles and 5 crossing of the rockies.

they were darkened but that's it.

of course i've got 6 on my unit vs 4 on the 2 axle trailers...

and the triple axle trailers weigh from 8-11.5k while the shorter trailers are 6-10.5k on 2 axles...

so tires and brakes may wear faster on the smaller units...

and i spent a lot of time bedding in the rotors and pads and adjusting the controller...

it's a mistake to just take off and start using them (not saying rich did this)

the dexters are different so visit their website for details...

floating? and 4 piston as i recall? also they just had a recall on some of them as used by airstream...

so while richs were wafer thin at 15 k mine may go 50-60k...if i don't get antsy first...

cheers
2air'

overlander63 · 12-12-2006, 07:11 PM

New brake pads need to be "cured" with gentle stops from 20, 30, 40, and 50 mph in order to fully bed in the linings. Rich's new pads are semi-metallic, a step up from the OEM pads, no Ceramic pads were available on a Saturday afternoon.
A Celebrity weighs about 3500 pounds, and the front brakes provide 70% of the stopping power. There are two sets on Rich's trailer, and it weighs about 7000 pounds. Pads like those on a car can be expected to last about 30,000 miles or so, depending on driving habits. They last 30,000 miles stopping 70% of 3500 pounds, not 50% of 7000 pounds, so they will wear faster. Rich's axle loading is 3500 pounds, and 2air's axle loading is just over 3800 pounds per axle. 2air has a more substantial tow vehicle, with larger brakes, and probably does more of the stopping than Rich's Armada.

2airishuman · 12-12-2006, 07:31 PM

terry i agree and think my pads must be the semi metallic...

empty my unit is 8600 and right now i'm a very svelt 10,500 total...

i agree the superduty may have better stopping guts than the armada,
but with a haha it's really important not to let the trailer push any, and mine doesn't.

do we know yet what his unit weights? seems the hole scale thing would be a good story for a/life some issue...

cheers
2air'

Silvertwinkie · 12-12-2006, 11:35 PM

This is a very interesting thread. I had no idea that the expected life of pad was so short or that there were different varieties of pads, namely ceramic.

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

This is a very interesting thread. I had no idea that the expected life of pad was so short or that there were different varieties of pads, namely ceramic.

Ceramic pads have many things going for them, such as much longer life, better stopping power, less tendency to fade, and, very important for folks with aluminum wheels, very little brake dust.

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

do we know yet what his unit weights? seems the hole scale thing would be a good story for a/life some issue...

cheers
2air'

The article may make its way into the magazine, y'all may yet get to see my cheerful mug gracing the pages of rich's publication.
Since there was such a delay in getting back on the road, he didn't stop for a weigh-in on the way North, although it is on his list (still).
10.5K, eh? Last time I saw you, I didn't think you weighed a pound over 9800...

ticki2 · 12-13-2006, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overlander63

Ceramic pads have many things going for them, such as much longer life, better stopping power, less tendency to fade, and, very important for folks with aluminum wheels, very little brake dust.

How are the rotors holding up with the ceramic pads ? Some have said go with the cheaper pads and replace more often and save the rotors which are more expensive .

Silvertwinkie · 12-13-2006, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ticki2

How are the rotors holding up with the ceramic pads ? Some have said go with the cheaper pads and replace more often and save the rotors which are more expensive .

Another great question.

One other one would be if these didn't tear up the rotors much sooner, would it make sense to have cermaics on a TV?

jimmickle · 12-13-2006, 10:31 AM

I have had ceramics on my tow vehicle for over 50,000 miles. No undo rotor wear. BTW, the pads cost about double what an aftermarket rotor costs.

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 11:02 AM

My thoughts on the pads is, you are supposed to repack wheel bearing annually, or every 12,000 miles. If you travel a LOT, as do 2air, and Rich, the ceramic pads would be a better choice. If you don't, a set of pads for this system (the cheap pads) run about $12-$15 per axle. You can replace the cheap pads when repacking the wheel bearings. That amount of wear is comparable to the standard drum shoes, but the pads are less. No magnets to replace, no springs, etc.

2airishuman · 12-13-2006, 01:03 PM

thanks jim for the longevity report on ceramic pads...

like tickl2 i wondered about rotor wear. apparently ceramics cause less than the semi metalic pads too.

as terry notes lots of good things like fade, more power and way less dust,

and making the pad choice based on how much one uses the trailer is wise, just like replacing low mileage tires based on time.

i'm a fan of upgrades done one at at time, IF unknown outcomes are an issue.

this time, put centramatics on and i'm still now sure they don't affect brake cooling, so first things first.

besides by next year when i really will need pads there may be some nifty slotted and drilled rotors and red calipers available too...

i am not a motorhead...much

cheers
2air'

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

this time, put centramatics on and i'm still now sure they don't affect brake cooling, so first things first.

i am not a motorhead...much

cheers
2air'

Rich's trailer has Centramatics, and I saw no evidence of rotor warpage, or hot spots on the rotors.

2airishuman · 12-13-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overlander63

Rich's trailer has Centramatics, and I saw no evidence of rotor warpage, or hot spots on the rotors.

yea but were they painted black?

mine are painted black

cheers
2air'

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

yea but were they painted black?

mine are painted black

cheers
2air'

No, they are silver.

ticki2 · 12-13-2006, 02:48 PM

Overlander 63
Good fedback , thanks

axleman · 12-13-2006, 03:23 PM

Great thread folks!

Regards,
Henry

3Ms75Argosy · 12-13-2006, 06:36 PM

ok, I'm still not convinced. Even though the ceramics may last longer, and bite a bit harder, isn't it still brake swept area that creates the true stopping power?

I'm not sure why the manufacturer would use such a small area caliper for the job, vs using something like a caliper out of a larger car (or maybe the Corvette?

)

2air has more swept area secondary to having more brakes.

I guess the point that bends my head the most is that although the disks stop better than the drums, the calipers are really manufactered for stopping about 2,600 pounds per axle (say 75% of a 3500 pound car)... 1) Why aren't the calipers bigger.. and 2) how quickly can a trailer / truck be made to stop? If the calipers were sized bigger (i.e. for the load), you should have some awesome stopping power and brake pad life.

I think it probably comes down to weight and cost for the manufacter. I wish I could compare the Dexter's and Kodiaks side by side.

For the Argosy, which currently weighs out for my trips right at 5,500 pounds, I'm sure I'll get better life out of the disks vs. say Rich's trailer. That said, it'll take me a LONGer time to get those 15,000 miles under my belt (bummer!).

After almost running out of brakes once on our last trip to Kelona B.C., I really believe in having stopping power. Going down a steep grade, geared down to 40 mph in second, there was a sharp "sucker corner" (one that looks gradual on entrance, then tightens remarkably at the end) that I saw coming up. Even pulsing the brakes from that slow speed, the grade and weight was enough to toast the brakes. I pulled right over after that turn (I could sense that the brakes weren't just right).... man, it took a LOT of pedal to stop us on the side of the road. The smell was aweful. We made camp for lunch there, and then went on our way. New pads were just installed all around the van prior to the trip, and the trailer's brakes were functioning fine just prior. Weight and hills will do this.

Glad for the 1 ton..... visions of disks were in my head after that experience.
Just have to save up!
Marc

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 06:45 PM

Here are the most current weights for the A/L Safari 30, Rich sent this to me:

We weigh the trailer about every six months, and our last weigh-in was July in Montana. It showed the trailer as weighing 7320 lbs, but this was hitched so you should probably add a bit in for tongue weight. GVWR is 8400.

--RL

overlander63 · 12-13-2006, 06:59 PM

Marc, the prupose of brakes is to use friction to convert motion into heat. It doesn't really matter what size the pads are, as long as they can dissipate the heat generated by using them. 2air has more square inches of braking surface, but when you compare weight for wieght, they are almost the same, on a square in per pound basis.
We have found through lots of testing in the automotive industry, that more isn't always better when it comes to braking. Semi metallic pads work better when they are hot, and the hotter they can safely get, without melting the rotors, the better. We found that braking efficiency actually decreased when we tried larger pads and rotors. There was too much material there for the pads to get hot enough to operate efficiently.
The thing that I noticed when replacing Rich's brakes, is the outboard pads were worn to a frazzle, and the inboard pads showed very little wear. The pads also were worn at an angle, which indicates to me that there may be a guide pin alignment issue on Rich's trailer. Interestingly, the right rear pads showed normal wear, and had I not been replacing the other three pad sets, I would have pronounced the brakes on that wheel good for at least another 15,000 miles. There was probably another 5/32" of usable pad on that wheel.

I am trying to use layman's terms for these descriptions, let me know if I lose anybody.