Kodiak Disks undersized?

[axleman]

Has anyone talked with Kodiak about Rich's brakes?

Just wondering?

Regards,
Henry

[Pick]

I would stay with the organic pads, and replace them more frequently. When you go to semi-metallic and ceramic, you will be replacing rotors as well as pads.

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by axleman

Has anyone talked with Kodiak about Rich's brakes?

Just wondering?

Regards,
Henry

Yes. He has a date with the Kodiak people when he gets back where they are.

[axleman]

Originally Posted by overlander63

Yes. He has a date with the Kodiak people when he gets back where they are.

That's cool - they are a great group. I'm sure the problems that have been encountered will disappear very quickly at this meeting.

Dexter's disc brake system, while a very nice one, is "new" when compared to the experience possessed by the Kodiak team. He'll be in excellent hands.

Best Regards,
Henry

[3Ms75Argosy]

next time we get together, we can swap racing stories too! What track are you at? Is this a club track day, and how often can you go? I want to play!

Thanks everyone for the info!
Marc

[scottanlily]

2air ,Iwould like to know whos trained eye was employed to make the stud determination ,Im more interested in the root cause .ARP fasteners who make
fasteners ,racing fasteners head bolts stud kits racing wheel studs etc ,
would be the proffesionall source to find out .I went to ARP personally
as they are close to me and spoke with a technician there ,and the type of
breakage is shear forces, as in a fastener that is called upon to clamp the
wheel or flywheel even ,that when able to get loose as in lug nuts ,the rotation and the fact that the studs also hold up the trailer (not the hub)
as it should be(hubcentric) the force and load shear off the studs .the evidence shows that under torqued nuts allowed to loosen would cause a shear .If you had studs overtorqued ,they would show the steel pulled
or stretched apart with the metal drawn up as in ripped apart .So if you
study the chart from ARP Fasteners you can see that studs as shown
look just like riches studs .You claim as if fact that someones expert eyes
knows that they were overtorqued ,when it appears the opposite ,wheel
comes loose ,studs shear off ,no hub support .As for the rotors ,I see the photos ,what kind of trick photography do think was used ? Lets stop with the pretending and that all was in perfect working order on this trailer
because it was not .I posted some good info for anyone to see at the other
thread on lug nut torque ,alas ,no responses or evidence anyone had a bit
of interest in educating themselves on such a criticle issue .Ive done what I
could to be helpful as much as possible .im not taking someones word on the stud issue as fact just cause they say so.

Scott

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by scottanlily

Iwould like to know whos trained eye was employed to make the stud determination

You claim as if fact that someones expert eyes knows that they were overtorqued ,when it appears the opposite.

As for the rotors ,I see the photos ,what kind of trick photography do think was used ? Lets stop with the pretending

im not taking someones word on the stud issue as fact just cause they say so.

Scott

terry...

here is a link to the blog where photos were posted...as i vaguely recall it was july 21 and 22...scroll down to those days....

Tour of America: July 2006

scott,

i made no mention of trick photography....colors differ from monitor to monitor.

the rotors don't look bluish on mine. but could on yours or others.

as i recall this topic has been covered. it seems that digital photo coloration has been discussed before too...

http://www.airforums.com/forum...08-post49.html

http://www.airforums.com/forum...73-post44.html



it's not my place to update you on who inspected what...
perhps you should contact the owner, or consider you only have a photo or 2 to look at,
while others have the goods in hand.

also as i vaguely recall you also wrote...

"I don't know and I really hope Rich luhr can get them examined so at least we have a clue as to if they were a problem"

in the last post of this thread...

http://www.airforums.com/forum...-24644-2.html?

my understanding is he's done that, is satisfied and has moved on...

now it seems you want to question who examined them, and how and so on....

surely it must be frustrating to rely on electronic photos and 2nd hand info for analysis...

but sadly that may be all you get...

cheers
2air'

[scottanlily]

2air you have a good memory there on the posts .This whole thread has been
talked about alot in other threads as I recall plenty .further more ,You have clearly made the statement on the studs and made the claim as fact on this thread .So Im asking for your knowledge of it .Your way of wording it seems to make it sound like im talking about somthing unrelated to your comments
in this thread .you dispute the photos ,but provide no other evidence .
If the photo was black and white only ,the darkened stripe made by the brakepad is still there which indicates high heating of the rotor ,and thats what this thread is about is it not ,Riches brakes ?

Scott

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by Pick

I would stay with the organic pads, and replace them more frequently. When you go to semi-metallic and ceramic, you will be replacing rotors as well as pads.

Hi, this is my opinion. I don't like organic pads. I want my vehicle to stop; So I will use ceramic or metalic pads for my vehicles that have disc brakes. New rotors are a lot cheaper than an accident caused by not being able to stop in time.

Hi, Next opinion. People have mentioned the difference in tow vehicles. And it does make some difference, but the trailer has brakes designed to stop the trailer and the tow vehicle has brakes designed to stop the tow vehicle. In other words each vehicle is supposed to stop itself. The brake controller is made to try to make the trailer and tow vehicle work as a team. [Not the tow vehicle stopping the trailer] and [Not the trailer stopping the tow vehicle]


Bob

[jimmickle]

Brake life is directly related to how you drive. If you drive conservatively, like I do, you will get long brake life. If you wait until the last minute to brake, your brake life will be much shorter, and you may run out of brakes due to overheating. Disc brakes typically have more heat capacity than drum brakes, so generally are an improvement. Those of us who have been around a while remember towing with drum brakes, and what we had to do to keep them from overheating. With disc brakes, I tend to drive the same way, so my brakes live long and healthy lives.

In the early 60s, we used to tow a Lotus 23B race car on a 650 pound open trailer behind a 61 Corvair Coupe with four of us, tools and spare parts all over the Midwest. Got 20 mpg when towing. No brakes on the trailer. We never even thought about trailer brakes. The Corvair did have the cero-metallic shoes, which would outlast two sets of drums, but they would stop once warmed up. Virtually no brakes in reverse when cold.

My point is that how and where you drive has a great effect on how your brakes live. If you drive aggressively, especially in the mountains, you will have more brake problems than those who drive more conservatively.

[Pick]

My GMC pickup has a 9200 Gross Vehicle Weight rating. Empty it probably weighs about 6000 pounds. So I have about 3200 pounds of reserve braking capacity. I'll bet most mid sized SUV's do not.

The assumption that the trailer brakes are designed to stop only the weight of the trailer could/should be true IF the brakes are adjusted properly, (I know disk brakes are self adjusting) and the brake controller is set properly.

I think a lot of folks have their brake controllers set too tight, based on what I have seen at horse shows and RV campgrounds. (Lots of skidding tires with flat spots on them). Or they just plain don't know how to set them in the first place.

[rluhr]

So many people interested in my brakes ... I'm flattered!

Originally Posted by scottanlily

2air ,Iwould like to know whos trained eye was employed to make the stud determination ... If you had studs overtorqued ,they would show the steel pulled or stretched apart with the metal drawn up as in ripped apart .

Yep, you're right. That's exactly what we found: stretched threads, a direct result of overtorquing. Two different professionals examined them and concurred. I explained this in the blog and in a private email to you last summer, but I think you like your pet theory better.

Originally Posted by scottanlily

As for the rotors ,I see the photos ,what kind of trick photography do think was used ? Lets stop with the pretending and that all was in perfect working order on this trailer because it was not .

I would be happy to email you high-resolution photos of the disc rotors taken in August, and again last week. They show absolutely no unusual discoloration. But why let facts get in the way of a good theory?

The fact that overlander63 (a 25+ year veteran of the industry) examined them last week and gave them a clean bill of health probably means nothing to you. The fact that we have towed 15,000 trouble-free miles on the same brakes and had no other failures probably wouldn't convince you either.

I suppose 2air's happy experience with the same brakes means nothing either. Or any of the other people who have retrofitted with Kodiak discs and love 'em.

But I hate to see Kodiak get dragged through the mud by people who don't know what they are talking about. So I'll go on the record: the Kodiak brakes are superb, they work much better than the factory drum brakes, and I'll put them on every heavy trailer I own from now on.

Really, do you think as full-timers logging over 30K miles per year of towing, we'd take chances with faulty brakes? I may be just an RV magazine publisher, but I'm not THAT big of an idiot!

Minnie's Mate: we use the Prodigy brake controller and it works very well.

Jimmickle: I'm sure you're right about aggressive driving being a major factor in brake wear, but as you probably can imagine, we don't drive a 30-foot, 8000# trailer aggressively anywhere. I have been told second-hand that Kodiak says the OEM pads haven't been holding up and they now recommend ceramics. We have semi-metallics now but may upgrade later.

3m75argosy: Marc, I'm no engineer but I am told the Kodiak discs offer twice the stopping power of the 12" drums the factory installed. Having driven this rig down many 6-10% grades out west, I can confirm the stopping power is absolutely amazing.

A short anecdote: last summer we went up and down a pass in Idaho near Jackson WY, 10% grade each way. Rich C (gadget) went first with a Nissan Titan and a 6000# Airstream with drum brakes. He had no trouble climbing but on the way down it was a white-knuckle experience. Had to run the truck in 2nd gear and ride the brakes all the way. He came out of the truck saying, "NEVER AGAIN!"

We had had the opposite experience. Our rig is a Nissan Armada (virtually identical to the Titan) and an 8000# Airstream with Kodiak discs. On the way up we had to stop to cool off the engine. On the way down, I left it in Drive and just tapped the brakes once in a while, just enough to light the taillights. The 10% downgrade was a complete non-event, despite having a trailer that weighed a full ton more!

That's how good the Kodiaks are.

This will be my only post on the subject. As much as I like discussing these things, keeping a magazine going and a daily weblog is all I have time for these days. Happy travels!

[jimmickle]

Originally Posted by rluhr

Jimmickle: I'm sure you're right about aggressive driving being a major factor in brake wear, but as you probably can imagine, we don't drive a 30-foot, 8000# trailer aggressively anywhere. I have been told second-hand that Kodiak says the OEM pads haven't been holding up and they now recommend ceramics. We have semi-metallics now but may upgrade later.

I have Raybestos ceramics on my tow vehicle, a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and love them. Very little dusting and good stopping power. They would probably be good on the trailer. BTW, Raybestos has a lifetime warranty. If you wear them out, just take them back with the proper paperwork and get new ones for free.

[Minnie's Mate]

Originally Posted by rluhr

Minnie's Mate: we use the Prodigy brake controller and it works very well.

Thanks for the info. IIRC, Prodigy makes the brake controller for Ford so that shouldn't be too much of an issue except that the Ford integrated system has a sensor in the brake cylinder that activates the trailer brakes and does so proportional to the TV brakes application. Plus they will pulse if the TV goes into anti-lock braking. Neither of which should be much of an issue in normal, day to day driving.

As far as difference in amount of wear. There may be one thing that could have played some role. I know 2aire stated that both he and Rich have Hensley Arrow hitches and allowing the trailer to push on the TV is a no-no, but I wondered if the tow/command going into engine braking would have reduced the amount of braking that 2aire has to apply and thus reduce the amount of time the trailer brakes are applied. I know I have virtually the same truck, mechanically, as 2aire and there are times my truck will go into engine braking on off ramps and even on flats when I apply brakes when I don't necessarily intend for it to. It is nice in mountains to have, but sometimes it can catch me off guard a little.

[2airishuman]

hi m'mate and others

first a big thanks to richL for posting about his set up...

firsthand information is hard2beat...

ok, we all seem to agree driving styles matter, rigs matter, mass matters, brake pads offer differing traits based on materials...

m'mate you are hitting very closely to another difference...
but not the brake controller...

the tow/haul mode...

the tow/haul mode on these f-250s downshifts on grades of 6-7% automatically, unless the driver touches the 'go' pedal...

also when the brakes are applied in tow/haul mode, again the tranny downshifts...

i don't know enough about the nissan tranny or programming to comment on what it does,

and really anyone can manually downshift on longer descents...

but the tow/haul does it without user input....

i often have decended very long, moderately steep roads

without using the brakes at all after the first 'tap'...

the rig will drop a gear, and rpms climb to 3k or so while speed levels off at 60-65 mph....

on 8-10% grades i may need to touch the brakes regularly but again the tranny is doing alot of work controlling speed.

when the truck was new to me and i was new 2 towing,
there were some 'experiments' not using tow/haul on downhills....
lots more speed, lots more braking to scrub speed...lots more work to go slow.
i didn' like it...

also i recall desending siskiyou pass which is pretty steep and the west side of the eisenhower tunnel pass; both with very little pedal braking effort....

when i did my usual temp check of wheels all round...
the trailer wheels were no hotter than when pulling into a rest stop on the flats...

so 'mate you may have hit on another nice thing... that helps us save brake pads/shoes...

automatic tranny programs that reduce the need for friction braking

cheers
2air'

[scottanlily]

Well then ,Im glad to find out first hand Rich and I did not get ANY email
back from you last summer so ,info has been second hand .All that has been said is that this was the truth and yet it was not confirmed . So Im sorry to
all then because I was mistaken about the studs .I agree that the stretch is
overtorquing .Respectfully ,I will disagree on the calipars and the pads as being fine as in the size .2airs brakes are on three axles ,but youve read the thread and so no need to go on about it .If someone disagrees its quite funny
that others decide then that the person is lacking sense ,or knowledge and couldn't possibly know what there talking about .do you guys believe your the
only ones that can have an opinion on these kodiac brakes ?as far as
over63 is concerned ,I find him to be very knowledgable and his posts are
very informative as always ,but I wanted to know the resources for his
opinion on the pad size ,and he PM me and he worked with wagner brakes
(a great brake manafacturer) I disagree on the brake pad size thing .My
experience with brakes with hundreds of different vehicals helps me in my
opinions as well .Rich ,Why are you saying that his 25 years mean nothing to me ? I completely respect his ideas ,does not mean i have to concur with it all the time does it ? people tell me Im wrong ,just like you have done here . Imglad your travels have been trouble free ,and to the contrary Rich ,Many posts on the studs has been in trying to solve the stud breakage
for ANY reason ,maybe you could read some and see that your terrible ordeal
has compelled me to try to help find a solution ,and I emailed you when I first heard of your troubles and expressed my concern for you and your family
asking if all were alright .Im not going to comment on broken studs or wheels
coming off in the future .you guys can handle it .

Scott

[overlander63]

This thread has about run its course now, all combatants ( ) have been heard from, and have made nice. Nothing had to get edited, and nobody got banned. Thanks for keeping it between the lines, guys.
Terry

[2airishuman]

this thread had been idle 4 awhile.

still has LOTS of good info and real time user experience.

early on 1 of the topics was brake PAD selection...

as in organic, ceramic or semi-metalic...

in particular the EXPECTED wear from each type.
______________

i have since replaced the OEM pads, after ~55-57,000 miles of use.

this was mentioned briefly in post #72 here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...ons-27999.html

(btw THOSE tires are still going and going...)

and the pad swap was done mid year 2008.

i thought it might be USEFUL to look at those HIGH mileage pads...

so pics to follow here...

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

here are a couple of shots of ONE SIDE...

that's right 6 pads from 3 calipers on one side.

pads are STACKED alternating OUTER/inner pads...

the faint reddish tones are from ferrous fibers oxidizing.

but these have been INSIDE a box (not in USE) for a year...

so the oxidation is from NON use and moisture in the air.

cheers
2air

[2airishuman]

the kodiak calipers are SINGLE piston (1 pot) design...

so the pad backing looks like this, with an impression from the piston...

when servicing disc brakes, SQUEEL, noise or vibration can be an issue.

one of the keys to preventing that is 2 use a brake pad salve (anti shudder) which appears to NOT have been used as new....

or was washed away after so many years and miles.

with continued use THESE pads may have started to make noise and could have benefited from some ANTI squeal silicone brake grease.

which WAS applied to the replacements..

cheers
2air'

zooom pics for larger views...