Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-13-2006, 03:12 PM   #15
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
yea but were they painted black?

mine are painted black

cheers
2air'
No, they are silver.
__________________

__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 03:48 PM   #16
Rivet Master
 
1976 25' Caravanner
Vintage Kin Owner
Campton , New Hampshire
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,113
Overlander 63
Good fedback , thanks
__________________

__________________
ticki2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 04:23 PM   #17
4 Rivet Member
Commercial Member
 
Currently Looking...
Somewhere , Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 432
Excellent!

Great thread folks!

Regards,
Henry
__________________
axleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 07:36 PM   #18
Rivet Master
 
3Ms75Argosy's Avatar
 
1975 Argosy 26
1963 24' Tradewind
Seattle , Washington
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,341
Images: 7
tiny pinchers...

ok, I'm still not convinced. Even though the ceramics may last longer, and bite a bit harder, isn't it still brake swept area that creates the true stopping power?

I'm not sure why the manufacturer would use such a small area caliper for the job, vs using something like a caliper out of a larger car (or maybe the Corvette? )

2air has more swept area secondary to having more brakes.

I guess the point that bends my head the most is that although the disks stop better than the drums, the calipers are really manufactered for stopping about 2,600 pounds per axle (say 75% of a 3500 pound car)... 1) Why aren't the calipers bigger.. and 2) how quickly can a trailer / truck be made to stop? If the calipers were sized bigger (i.e. for the load), you should have some awesome stopping power and brake pad life.

I think it probably comes down to weight and cost for the manufacter. I wish I could compare the Dexter's and Kodiaks side by side.

For the Argosy, which currently weighs out for my trips right at 5,500 pounds, I'm sure I'll get better life out of the disks vs. say Rich's trailer. That said, it'll take me a LONGer time to get those 15,000 miles under my belt (bummer!).

After almost running out of brakes once on our last trip to Kelona B.C., I really believe in having stopping power. Going down a steep grade, geared down to 40 mph in second, there was a sharp "sucker corner" (one that looks gradual on entrance, then tightens remarkably at the end) that I saw coming up. Even pulsing the brakes from that slow speed, the grade and weight was enough to toast the brakes. I pulled right over after that turn (I could sense that the brakes weren't just right).... man, it took a LOT of pedal to stop us on the side of the road. The smell was aweful. We made camp for lunch there, and then went on our way. New pads were just installed all around the van prior to the trip, and the trailer's brakes were functioning fine just prior. Weight and hills will do this.

Glad for the 1 ton..... visions of disks were in my head after that experience.
Just have to save up!
Marc
__________________
3Ms75Argosy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 07:45 PM   #19
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,193
Here are the most current weights for the A/L Safari 30, Rich sent this to me:


We weigh the trailer about every six months, and our last weigh-in was July in Montana. It showed the trailer as weighing 7320 lbs, but this was hitched so you should probably add a bit in for tongue weight. GVWR is 8400.


--RL
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 07:59 PM   #20
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,193
Marc, the prupose of brakes is to use friction to convert motion into heat. It doesn't really matter what size the pads are, as long as they can dissipate the heat generated by using them. 2air has more square inches of braking surface, but when you compare weight for wieght, they are almost the same, on a square in per pound basis.
We have found through lots of testing in the automotive industry, that more isn't always better when it comes to braking. Semi metallic pads work better when they are hot, and the hotter they can safely get, without melting the rotors, the better. We found that braking efficiency actually decreased when we tried larger pads and rotors. There was too much material there for the pads to get hot enough to operate efficiently.
The thing that I noticed when replacing Rich's brakes, is the outboard pads were worn to a frazzle, and the inboard pads showed very little wear. The pads also were worn at an angle, which indicates to me that there may be a guide pin alignment issue on Rich's trailer. Interestingly, the right rear pads showed normal wear, and had I not been replacing the other three pad sets, I would have pronounced the brakes on that wheel good for at least another 15,000 miles. There was probably another 5/32" of usable pad on that wheel.

I am trying to use layman's terms for these descriptions, let me know if I lose anybody.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 08:04 PM   #21
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
hi marc,

your questions are reasonable but i think you will need an automotive/brake engineer to sort this out...

that is not me...

-the initial comparison to a cheap ge'em car is misleading.
yes the kodiak brakes may take the same size pad but the comparision ends there.
the actual calipers/construction are NOT the same or pistons and so on.

-without increasing area of the pads, changing material can make a big difference....
i've got a stock audi s6. at the track i can eat stock pads in one day,
stopping a 4000lb car from 140mph over and over and running the twisties all day will reveal pad issues quickly...
the wrong pads and the brake fluid will cook

and fade will increase during the day as they heat up and the pads get mushy...
switching to a track pad will give a little less cold/street stopping
but on the track or after they heat up the performance is dramatically different.

without any change in caliper, rotors or brake fluid.

in fact the fluid runs cooler just because of the pad changes....
so the pedal end point doesn't change because fluid stays cooler.

now back to the a/s...

-the brake size is limited by wheel size right? don't forget these a/s still just have 15inch wheels....
my audi has 17 and 18s which allow a much bigger rotor/caliper.
also wheel offset gives room for bigger brakes.

infact the only functional reason to put larger wheels on a performance/track car is to accomodate bigger brakes.

-however, brakes don't stop the trailers, TIRES do..
and we are still using st trailer tires with a given grip/contact patch.
increasing brake power beyond the tires design limits, will not improve stopping.

if you are considering discs...get them. they perform better on every level than drum brakes.

one advantage to the kodiaks is pads are easier to find...

lastly some emprical performance data...
trailer life? did a stopping test with the ford superduty and an disc brake a/s...

the truck/trailer combo stopped in less distance than the truck alone...

so the brakes are very effective.

cheers
2air'

on edit,
i agree with terry, knowing the wear was asymetrical,
i wondered if the installation was an issue too but didn't want to bring that up..
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 08:14 PM   #22
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
on edit,
i agree with terry, knowing the wear was asymetrical,
i wondered if the installation was an issue too but didn't want to bring that up..
I suggested Rich stop by on his way through Texas, and see what they could see there. I still have the pads, in case the engineers want to take a look at them. If not, maybe I can sell them on Ebay...
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 08:17 PM   #23
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63
maybe I can sell them on Ebay...

did he autograph them?

cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 09:57 PM   #24
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,270
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
brakes, brakes, brakes

Hi, Organic pads are easier on the rotors, but don't stop near as well. Metallic pads stop well but, need more heat to begin to work. Ceramic pads stop best, [still need heat] and are cleaner. Drum brakes work better than disc brakes at slower speeds and while colder. Too much brakeing power will cause the tires to slip; Locking up the wheels on your trailer can and will cause the trailer to lose control, swing around and kiss the tow vehicle. As 2air mentioned, more brakes need more tire. The absolute best brakeing is when you have applied the most brakeing pressure possible without tire slippage, Thus ABS.
Please don't go back to drums; I want those free, new or near new, drum take offs UPS'ed to me.
As for the pads wearing quite a bit more on one side of the rotor than the other, This is a caliper slide problem. All moveing, metal to metal, parts need to be lubricated with silicone brake lube or, my favorite, Antiseize.

Bob
__________________
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 10:03 PM   #25
Rivet Master
 
1960 24' Tradewind
santa barbara , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,352
Hello guys ,

As I follow this thread ,Im reading some things that are not quite right
that are being posted as facts or close too .the idea that it doesn't really matter the size of the brakes ,but the ability to dissapate heat is what matters is wrong .The size of the pads is very important as to having enough
pad to effectively clamp the rotor as it turns WITHOUT having them overheat
because they are too small and cannot perform the intended job .Case study
1 ,2005 GM 1 ton dually flatbed ,rear disc brakes ,have done rear pad replacements on 5 trucks 3 or 4 times .Yes they carry some weight ,but all
the pads are always white hot cooked (GM delco factory pads ) delaminated
some Napa premium pads I tried once .The point is that the drum brake
trucks they had ,got maybe 2 sets of shoes in 200 000 miles ,same loads .
Why ,the swept area is greater by 70% easy with full linings on drum brakes
the rear discs are not big enough ,the pads swept area is small .GM is having
trouble with the pad life .so if you do have celebrity calipars and pads ,and
they are ,they are too small .I myself have done some kodiac installs and
agree they are too small and the pads I myself have replaced also wear at angle ,not normal .Next: tire stops the trailer not the brakes ??? alot of folks here will be understandibly confused with this statement .the brakes do stop the trailer and certainly if you had larger calipars and pads ,it would be a
great improvement and the tires would not skid .Ive not seen any trailer or vehical with dramatically improved braking causing the wheels to lock and cause a skid in normal driving or towing conditions . Ive upgrade the travelalls brakes from 12" drum to 12" disc ,stops in half the distance and
does not skid .Disc brakes by design do not impart locking conditions as is
common on drum brake vehicals .if you do not have a brake pad large enough to provide safe smooth stopping power under normal or even adverse
conditions such as the normal downhill travel then your brakes are NOT
up to the task .Putting on better pads helps ,racing is a different environment all together different story .Richs trailer brakes are poor ,the rotors displayed
overheating and bluing and blackish tracking of the pad /transfer to the rotor
IVe seen the blog, studied the photos plenty ,he needs larger calipars and pads in addition to the stud fiasco that theres a blind eye to .any one that
cannot go down a hill with their trailer without the brakes torching on the
rotors and boiling the brakes needs somthing done to improve the situation .
thats just the facts ,I mean why tow a trailer then if your afraid the brakes will burn up ?Ive been in the automotive service industry for over 25 years and see brakes every day ,rotors and pads should have even wear and not
have obviouse signs of overheating and distress . The calipars are trying to
clamp the rotor and cannot do this effectively ,severly overheating the small
undersized pads on these trailers .This situation needs attention to prevent crashes and injurys and loss of life.Drum brakes can and do lock up and skid
dangerouse as well ,why we have disc brakes
Sorry ,long post .

Scott
__________________
scottanlily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 08:46 AM   #26
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,193
Scott, I just scanned over your post, (haven't had time to read it) and saw you mentioned blue rotors. I don't remember Rich taking, or posting, any photos of the rotors. Can you tell me where you saw them? Admittedly we were in a hurry last Saturday, but I don't remember the rotors being blue.
I DID check for lateral runout, and hot spots, and found the rotors not warped to any degree.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 09:31 AM   #27
Tom, the Uber Disney Fan
 
Minnie's Mate's Avatar
 
2006 30' Safari
Orlando , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,693
Images: 7
First, I know nothing about automotive anything. I can change the oil and wiper blades and that's about it! So please forgive my ignorance and my forgetfulness, but are the uneven ware pads on one of the tires that lost the lug studs? Could something have gotten bent when this occurred that caused a misalignment that would cause uneven pad wear?
__________________
2006 30' Safari - "Changes in Latitudes"
2008 F-250 Lariat Power Stroke Diesel Crew Cab SWB
Family of Disney Fanatics
WBCCI# 4821
http://streaminacrossamerica.com/
Minnie's Mate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 10:35 AM   #28
Rivet Master
 
3Ms75Argosy's Avatar
 
1975 Argosy 26
1963 24' Tradewind
Seattle , Washington
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,341
Images: 7
My head's spinning....

better put a caliper on it!

I still think I'm going to use disks, I just wish someone made a nice 4 piston caliper that would fit with the 15" rims. Some Brembo's would be nice... 2air... better check to make sure those rims/ tires/ and brakes are still there on your s6! I'd love to see your track days. I used to run Solo II in my early college days (modified Civic Si).

I'd love to see a side/side comparo of the same size/weight trailer with drums and disks. I still contend that the overall function of the disks (pad life, heat dispersion, stopping distances) would work better with longer calipers (bigger pads) - but don't dispute that they're better than drums. I feel that some bean counters are making choices that put our running gear just past the horse/buggy age.

Marc
__________________

__________________
3Ms75Argosy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Disc vs Drum Brakes? Thrift Brakes & Brake Controllers 39 08-11-2007 01:19 PM
Setup of Actibrake with Kodiak disks on Bambi mswartz Brakes & Brake Controllers 18 02-13-2007 11:31 AM
Kodiak Hydraulic disc brakes thenewkid64 Brakes & Brake Controllers 1 07-06-2004 11:48 PM
Are our axles undersized ? Mike B Axles 5 09-19-2003 07:21 AM
Vacuum disks locking unexpectedly wvmiller Brakes & Brake Controllers 1 04-26-2003 11:12 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.