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04-22-2009, 06:01 AM
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#1
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1 Rivet Member
2007 30' Classic S/O
Crestview
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 11
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Hydraulic/Disc brake problem
2007 30' Classic
This coach was purchased new and there have been intermitten problems with the brakes dragging and eventually locking up on the street side rear. The calipers, rotors and pads had to be replaced on that side. Of the four pads two had seperated one of the pads was riding on the outside of a rotor the other had completly disintegrated with the metal backing plate grinding into the inside of that rotor. The dealer had installed a Primus brake controller telling us that it was the one to use. The actuator is a Actibrake that was of course installed by Airstream. Since the repairs I have been using a Hensley tru control and the brake dragging is starting to reoccur. The repairs were made in Feb. 09.
Are these problems common to this system? Is the Actibrake actuator at fault? Is the brake controler at fault?
I do know that having a brake lock up going 55 miles per hour on a two lane road is an exciting experience that I do not want to experience again.
I do know that the actuator will operate intermittenly with the truck running with no pressure at all on the brake pedal.
I would certainly appreciate any advice or suggestions that would resolve this problem.
Hugh Ridenour
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04-22-2009, 07:26 AM
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#2
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
.
, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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The Tekonsha P4 and Hayes Genesis are the only brake controllers that won't pulse the actuator. Are all the brakes activating, or just one wheel?
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
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04-22-2009, 09:39 AM
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#3
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1 Rivet Member
2007 30' Classic S/O
Crestview
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63
The Tekonsha P4 and Hayes Genesis are the only brake controllers that won't pulse the actuator. Are all the brakes activating, or just one wheel?
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We have no way to know if one wheel is braking or all four.
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04-22-2009, 11:08 AM
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#4
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flantiquer
We have no way to know if one wheel is braking or all four.
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Brake test.
When moving at about 30 MPH, hit the brake controller, with vigor.
If one brake is out, on either side, when the brakes are applied it will make your tow vehicle want to turn.
This applies to a single, tandem as well as a tri-axle trailer.
As an example, if one brake is out on the curb side, the road side brakes will push the back of your tow vehicle to the left. That will make the front of your tow vehicle, turn to the right.
When making that test, apply a large amount of brakes.
You might be amazed as to what that simple test will demonstrate.
Andy
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04-25-2009, 05:12 PM
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#5
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1 Rivet Member
2007 30' Classic S/O
Crestview
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 11
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Brakes/Brake Controller/Actuator
Airstream said to use the Hayes Genesis, so we bought one and put it on. It runs constantly. We took it back thinking it was defective. Put the second one on and at first it was fine. Decided to take the Airstream for a run around the block to see if the brakes were going to work and before we got out of the yard, they started running on their own without pressing the brake. It took unplugging the 7-pin plug before they would stop running. What's going on? We can't go anywhere until this problem is fixed. Any ideas? Thanks!
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04-25-2009, 05:50 PM
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#6
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More than one rivet loose
Currently Looking...
Los Alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,756
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Did you sync the Brake Controller and the Acti-Brake?
This is done by running your gain(boost) in my case to maximum and manually activating the brakes fully three times. You do this parked of course.
__________________
Michelle TAC MT-0
Sarah, Snowball
Looking for a 1962 Flying Cloud
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04-25-2009, 11:32 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Salem
, Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,369
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Conversion kit for drum brakes.
Hi, I was told that Science Diet was the best dog food made, but if my dog won't eat it, then it's not the best for him. What does this have to do with brakes? Well I have heard from so many people how much better disc brakes on Airstreams are than drum brakes; But if they don't work, and I have read many complaints similar to your's, then the old fashion drum brakes is the way to go. [My opinion]
Disc brakes:
(1.) Lug nut studs breaking off.
(2.) Caliper bolts coming loose.
(3.) Cheap original brake pads.
(4.) Actuator leaking.
(5.) Actuator working intermittantly.
(6.) Charge line on GM vehicles has dummy fuse, affecting Actuator operation.
(7.) Low battery Affecting Actuator operation.
(8.) Brake controller not compatable with disc brake Actuator.
(9.) Actuator company out of business.
(10.) Disc brake delay affecting Hensley Arrow [bump] operation.
(11.) Disc brakes save the day [false] for drivers who don't down shift their transmissions on down grades to prevent brake overheat and failure.
(12.) Necessary to sync the controller with the actuator.
Drum brakes:
(1.) Have less, but enough stopping power.
(2.) Don't work well when submerged in water.
(3.) Drums are not balanced. (Centramatics]
(4.) Will fade if overheated. [Try down shifting your transmission and adjusting your brake controller properly]
(5.) Will work with vertually all brake controllers. [better with some]
__________________
Bob 2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent" Small Silver Castle
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
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04-26-2009, 04:05 AM
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#8
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3 Rivet Member
2007 25' Classic
kendal
, cumbria, UK
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 213
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flantiquer,
Had the same problems with our 2007 25' Classic. The post "Trailer Brake Problems" might help in some way.
There is another recent post regarding brake hoses. I have had one hose so badly kinked that I couldn't bleed that wheel until it was straightened. Trapped brake fluid in the hoses could be something to look at. Took this photo this morning. The hose is clearly too short with a sharp bend at the caliper end. Imagine that hose when the wheel hits a bump!
I'm inclined to agree with Robertsunrus - disc brakes don't work for me.
Two years on and still having problems.
John in the UK
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04-26-2009, 04:35 AM
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#9
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3 Rivet Member
2007 25' Classic
kendal
, cumbria, UK
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 213
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flantiquer,
We have our Hayes Genesis set @ l0% initial braking and 50% inertia. Check your output from truck socket blue wire, think it's pin 2.
John in the UK
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05-08-2009, 07:11 AM
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#10
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1 Rivet Member
2007 30' Classic S/O
Crestview
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 11
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UPDATE: Airstream overnighted another Actibrake actuator and it was replaced and it appears to have taken care of the brake problems! Sure hope this is the end of the brake problems! Thanks for all your suggestions.
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05-03-2010, 06:58 PM
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#11
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New Member
Currently Looking...
Captain Cook
, Hawaii
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1
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Since brakes are such an important topic - I was wondering if my newly-purchased 28' 2000 Excella has drum or disc brakes.
It sounds like there is some discussion about which system is best. Also does anyone know if there is a conversion kit to go with disc brakes?
Mahalo, Carl
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05-03-2010, 07:03 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiicarl
Since brakes are such an important topic - I was wondering if my newly-purchased 28' 2000 Excella has drum or disc brakes.
It sounds like there is some discussion about which system is best. Also does anyone know if there is a conversion kit to go with disc brakes?
Mahalo, Carl
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Aloha Carl.
What kind of conversion kit are you asking about?
From disc brakes to electric brakes?
Or, electric brakes to disc brakes?
The disc brakes, are by far the best.
I will be in Oahu tomorrow, for a few days.
Mahalo.
Andy
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05-04-2010, 12:37 PM
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#13
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2 Rivet Member
2001 31' Excella
Bluffton
, South Carolina
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 62
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Hydraulic Brake Line Problems
I installed a disc brake kit using the Kodiak brakes and a universal line kit. Being a manufacturing engineer might have helped but first, the flex lines on this kit used a ridged 90 on the end to connect to the caliper. So no kinked hoses and then I used a plastic spiral rap on the flex lines to prevent chaffing the rubber hoses. I chose to install lines next to the frame and behind the shocks to prevent any chance of tire abrasion. And of course the layout of the hoses is important that they can move with the action of the suspension system. I can't say that I would approve of the AS layout after seeing the pictures and mechanical s. But I did look over their installation before I did my kit install and copied their actuator location and line layouts to the axles, using a Y layout, down the center, split to each axle pair.
I used a kit from Andy's and only the Hydraulic line layout was not documented in any way. They send the lines and then you've got to figure out to make your particular AS layout work, But I did E-mail and get answers when I needed them.
Three years and not a problem.
__________________
Fred Bartlett
30' S/O 01 Excella, maple floors in Galley, HA Hitch, Hyd. Disc Brakes, P3 Controller, SS Kit. Bk Splash, LED RL's, 2K/Tri Fuel Gen's & RV on TT
04 Chevy HD, CC, D/A, Curt Magnum V Rec., Full Amsoil Syn.,Dual Filters, ARE, MX Topper with lift Gate Door, Bed Rug, TPS & Bk.up Camera.
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10-18-2010, 06:10 PM
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#14
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Site Team
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere
, South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK57ABF
flantiquer,
Had the same problems with our 2007 25' Classic. The post "Trailer Brake Problems" might help in some way.
There is another recent post regarding brake hoses. I have had one hose so badly kinked that I couldn't bleed that wheel until it was straightened. Trapped brake fluid in the hoses could be something to look at. Took this photo this morning. The hose is clearly too short with a sharp bend at the caliper end. Imagine that hose when the wheel hits a bump!
I'm inclined to agree with Robertsunrus - disc brakes don't work for me.
Two years on and still having problems.
John in the UK
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We just came back from a 600 mile round trip, new TPMS helped me spot a HOT wheel, roughly 20 deg or so hotter than the other 3, CURB REAR. Checked with infrared temp gun, rotor was hot, hub just a bit warmer than others and definite smell of brake pad. Pulled wheel in route, checked pads, cleaned pad contact ears, touch of lube, continued trip. I didn't see anything to account for the problem until John's picture of his hose, mine looks the same line seems veunerable to a pinch under correct conditions. More to investigate, buts looks spooky similar.
Thanks for the check here John.
Gary
__________________
S/OS #001 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Dexter 4 Piston Disc Brakes, Carslile Actuator, Equal-I-Zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook. BMV-712. DEMCO 21K Lb Cast Iron coupler
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10-19-2010, 04:20 AM
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#15
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3 Rivet Member
2007 25' Classic
kendal
, cumbria, UK
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 213
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GCinSC2 : I phoned Jackson Centre back in 2009, advising them of the problem with short brake hoses. They shipped a pair of longer hoses FOC to the UK. Bless 'em.
John in the UK
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10-19-2010, 06:10 PM
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#16
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Site Team
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere
, South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK57ABF
GCinSC2 : I phoned Jackson Centre back in 2009, advising them of the problem with short brake hoses. They shipped a pair of longer hoses FOC to the UK. Bless 'em.
John in the UK
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John,
Interesting idea, so just longer hoses helped with this problem, very good. I just took this pic tonight, looks like under suspension compression it would not take much to kink the hose and trap or in some way hinder the fluid flow. I think you can see the folds in the hose, swing arm goes up during suspension compression, hose effectively gets shorter, in my observation, slight frame contact. Suggestion inspect your brake lines in a suspension loaded state, unloaded with the tire off of the ground suspension arm hangs down, bend relaxes. This is the rotor and caliper that got hot on return trip.
John, good luck with your projects and thanks.
Gary
__________________
S/OS #001 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Dexter 4 Piston Disc Brakes, Carslile Actuator, Equal-I-Zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook. BMV-712. DEMCO 21K Lb Cast Iron coupler
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10-20-2010, 10:01 AM
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#17
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4 Rivet Member
2006 30' Classic
Milton
, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 256
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After reading this thread, and similar threads on this forum, combined with our own experience with hydraulic disc brakes on a 30' 2006 Classic, I am relatively certain that many of the single wheel braking issues experienced by various owners can be traced to the way that AS installed the flexible brake hoses. As installed by AS, the flexible brake lines are prone to kink at the point where they go into the caliper, leading to unexpected braking issues.
A hydraulic actuator cannot create a braking issue on just one wheel. The actiBrake failure issue has nothing to do with the single wheel braking issues.
A single caliper can stick for various reasons. However, the frequency of occurence of these single wheel braking issues on As's seems too large to be a caliper issue.
Badly kinked flexible brake lines are known to cause problems of the sort experienced by many of us.
Myself, and others, have eliminated the single wheel brake issue by eliminating the kinks at the point where the flexible brake lines go into the caliper.
Properly designed and installed, hydraulic disc brakes are superior to electric drum brakes in terms of ease of maintenance, reliability, etc.
__________________
F. A. Meloy
2006 30' Classic
Dexter hydraulic disc brake system
Centramatics wheel balancing & Dill TPMS
Hensley hitch & Maxim skylights
Voyager Camera System WVOS713
2010 FORD F-250, ITBC, 6.8 liter V-10 gas, with VIAIR on-board air system
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11-11-2011, 01:52 AM
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#18
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3 Rivet Member
1983 31' Excella
2005 30' Classic
1993 33' Land Yacht
Wellfleet
, Massachusetts
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 109
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Has anyone ever put an brass elbow fitting at the end of the brake hose to reduce the bend in the hose ?
Don
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11-11-2011, 07:00 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
1981 31' Excella II
New Market
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,145
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It is possible for these rubber hoses to fail internally even when they look fine on the outside. If they are bent at sharp angles they could be even more suspect. What can happen is the fluid gets trapped when the interior of the hose collapses and it lets fluid into the caliper but not out. Calipers are simple devices. There are pistons and they should more freely in the bore. It should be possible to push on them when them with the bleeder open and fluid should come out the bleeder. On cars, I use a big C-clamp and it pushes the pistons back in so the pads can be replaced. If the caliper is not sliding left to right it may cause slight dragging but usually the pad opposite the piston will wear more if this is the case. Pistons usually don't sieze in the bore unless they are very old and get stuck from lack of use. The biggest enemy of a hydraulic brake system is sitting. Fluid should be changed yearly or replaced with DOT 5 in which case it will last forever. I agree with the other guy that said that if you have one wheel dragging it is not the brake controller or actuator. It has to be a caliper or hose. Standard brake fluid is evil stuff. It sucks up water and will rust caliper bores. If you use it every day you keep the rust from forming. If it sits for long periods water can corrosion can build but I think you are having hose problems.
Perry
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11-11-2011, 07:09 AM
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#20
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3 Rivet Member
2008 30' Classic
Tampa
, Florida
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 104
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Brake lines for hydraulic disc brakes.
After the Canopener I will be in Tampa for 6-8 weeks and will be replacing all the hydraulic brake lines. I helped a friend last year to change over from the rubber lines to ones with a braided steel shield. There is a company in Tampa, Amazon Hose and Rubber that I have dealt with for over 20 years that in addition to industrial applications also provides belts and hoses for many of the high performance race cars. It's really nice that most of the time I can take something in to them and if it's simple I can wait for it to be fixed or fabricated. I think an elbow might be a good idea to help releive the strain at the connection point to the caliper. Jerry
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Jerry, Irene & Clancy
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