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Old 10-19-2010, 05:20 AM   #15
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GCinSC2 : I phoned Jackson Centre back in 2009, advising them of the problem with short brake hoses. They shipped a pair of longer hoses FOC to the UK. Bless 'em.

John in the UK
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:10 PM   #16
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GCinSC2 : I phoned Jackson Centre back in 2009, advising them of the problem with short brake hoses. They shipped a pair of longer hoses FOC to the UK. Bless 'em.

John in the UK
John,

Interesting idea, so just longer hoses helped with this problem, very good. I just took this pic tonight, looks like under suspension compression it would not take much to kink the hose and trap or in some way hinder the fluid flow. I think you can see the folds in the hose, swing arm goes up during suspension compression, hose effectively gets shorter, in my observation, slight frame contact. Suggestion inspect your brake lines in a suspension loaded state, unloaded with the tire off of the ground suspension arm hangs down, bend relaxes. This is the rotor and caliper that got hot on return trip.

John, good luck with your projects and thanks.

Gary
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:01 AM   #17
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After reading this thread, and similar threads on this forum, combined with our own experience with hydraulic disc brakes on a 30' 2006 Classic, I am relatively certain that many of the single wheel braking issues experienced by various owners can be traced to the way that AS installed the flexible brake hoses. As installed by AS, the flexible brake lines are prone to kink at the point where they go into the caliper, leading to unexpected braking issues.

A hydraulic actuator cannot create a braking issue on just one wheel. The actiBrake failure issue has nothing to do with the single wheel braking issues.

A single caliper can stick for various reasons. However, the frequency of occurence of these single wheel braking issues on As's seems too large to be a caliper issue.

Badly kinked flexible brake lines are known to cause problems of the sort experienced by many of us.

Myself, and others, have eliminated the single wheel brake issue by eliminating the kinks at the point where the flexible brake lines go into the caliper.

Properly designed and installed, hydraulic disc brakes are superior to electric drum brakes in terms of ease of maintenance, reliability, etc.
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:52 AM   #18
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Has anyone ever put an brass elbow fitting at the end of the brake hose to reduce the bend in the hose ?
Don
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:00 AM   #19
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It is possible for these rubber hoses to fail internally even when they look fine on the outside. If they are bent at sharp angles they could be even more suspect. What can happen is the fluid gets trapped when the interior of the hose collapses and it lets fluid into the caliper but not out. Calipers are simple devices. There are pistons and they should more freely in the bore. It should be possible to push on them when them with the bleeder open and fluid should come out the bleeder. On cars, I use a big C-clamp and it pushes the pistons back in so the pads can be replaced. If the caliper is not sliding left to right it may cause slight dragging but usually the pad opposite the piston will wear more if this is the case. Pistons usually don't sieze in the bore unless they are very old and get stuck from lack of use. The biggest enemy of a hydraulic brake system is sitting. Fluid should be changed yearly or replaced with DOT 5 in which case it will last forever. I agree with the other guy that said that if you have one wheel dragging it is not the brake controller or actuator. It has to be a caliper or hose. Standard brake fluid is evil stuff. It sucks up water and will rust caliper bores. If you use it every day you keep the rust from forming. If it sits for long periods water can corrosion can build but I think you are having hose problems.

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Old 11-11-2011, 08:09 AM   #20
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Brake lines for hydraulic disc brakes.

After the Canopener I will be in Tampa for 6-8 weeks and will be replacing all the hydraulic brake lines. I helped a friend last year to change over from the rubber lines to ones with a braided steel shield. There is a company in Tampa, Amazon Hose and Rubber that I have dealt with for over 20 years that in addition to industrial applications also provides belts and hoses for many of the high performance race cars. It's really nice that most of the time I can take something in to them and if it's simple I can wait for it to be fixed or fabricated. I think an elbow might be a good idea to help releive the strain at the connection point to the caliper. Jerry
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:18 AM   #21
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It is possible for these rubber hoses to fail internally even when they look fine on the outside. If they are bent at sharp angles they could be even more suspect. What can happen is the fluid gets trapped when the interior of the hose collapses and it lets fluid into the caliper but not out. Calipers are simple devices. There are pistons and they should more freely in the bore. It should be possible to push on them when them with the bleeder open and fluid should come out the bleeder. On cars, I use a big C-clamp and it pushes the pistons back in so the pads can be replaced. If the caliper is not sliding left to right it may cause slight dragging but usually the pad opposite the piston will wear more if this is the case. Pistons usually don't sieze in the bore unless they are very old and get stuck from lack of use. The biggest enemy of a hydraulic brake system is sitting. Fluid should be changed yearly or replaced with DOT 5 in which case it will last forever. I agree with the other guy that said that if you have one wheel dragging it is not the brake controller or actuator. It has to be a caliper or hose. Standard brake fluid is evil stuff. It sucks up water and will rust caliper bores. If you use it every day you keep the rust from forming. If it sits for long periods water can corrosion can build but I think you are having hose problems.

Perry
Yes, it is most common for the internal layer to fail before any apparent outside problem. This is true with any vehicle. That is why they say NEVER to let your calipers hang by the hose while doing a brake job.

When the inner layer tears and creates a "flap", one or both of these occur:
Brakes on that wheel is slower to apply than the other three. This usually causes a pull to left or right upon brake apply.

Slow to release (or not completely releasing). Causes accellerated pad wear on that wheel, heat buildup, rotor blueing and wear.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:19 AM   #22
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Stainless hoses are good but they have their limits as well. They still have rubber liners inside them but they are much better than the rubber hoses. Most folks use them because the provide a more solid pedal feel which is not a big deal here. You can get slighly more braking force at the caliper because the hoses don't expand as much.

Perry
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:11 AM   #23
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Has anyone ever put an brass elbow fitting at the end of the brake hose to reduce the bend in the hose ?
Don
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We installed banjo fittings on our 2006 Classic to solve the kinked brake hose problem. These fittings are equivalent to a 90 degree fitting.

Nick
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:44 PM   #24
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Stainless hoses are good but they have their limits as well. They still have rubber liners inside them but they are much better than the rubber hoses. Most folks use them because the provide a more solid pedal feel which is not a big deal here. You can get slighly more braking force at the caliper because the hoses don't expand as much.

Perry
Since the hydro-electric systems are essentially pressure amps (the brake line pressure is a linear function of input current), the effect of brake hose compliance on our trailers is to create more brake delay on application, and slightly reduce the speed with which the brakes are released.

- Bart
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:48 PM   #25
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So you are saying stainless BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perry
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:44 PM   #26
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So you are saying stainless BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perry
Nope - just not needed here. They're wonderful on motorcycles, sports cars and the link, and if your brake lines are attacked w/ knives, they make a difference. I just don't think you're going to notice much in this application. As I said, if you replace the rubber hoses w/ stainless, the brakes will come on slightly faster, and and come off slightly faster as well - but not so much as you'd notice.

The steel lines, of course, are much stiffer than any hose. I fixed some unusual resonance problems once in a piece of experimental farm machinery by replacing the long hoses with short hoses connecting steel lines.

- Bart
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:53 AM   #27
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After looking at the picture of the brake hose on such an angle I removed my wheels to inspect my hoses and none of mine were mounted on an angle like this one shown in the picture . (2005 classic) . No chance for a kink Do you think you could have a brake line routing problem ? Could you have the wrong caliper ? Also could someone tell me if hydraulic/disc brakes were an option in 2005 because another 2005 classic I inquired about has electric with drum brakes . Regular hydraulic brake hoses have worked fine for years I see no need for steel renforced hoses for this application .
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Old 11-13-2011, 10:59 AM   #28
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Since the hydro-electric systems are essentially pressure amps (the brake line pressure is a linear function of input current), the effect of brake hose compliance on our trailers is to create more brake delay on application, and slightly reduce the speed with which the brakes are released.

- Bart
Bart,

I have worked on my trailer disc brake "system" more than I really ever wanted or expected to. And unfortunatelly I'll be going over a similar repair but not as bad as the OP described possibly Thanksgiving week. We should also include the thread by HAP3 with his destroyed brakes & hoses. I had a HOT rotor and a VERY HOT rotor on a single axle on my dual axle 30'. Both of these axles were not even 1 year old, an undiscussed long story. I actually drove home with just the front axle brakes working, I had to plug off the lines to the rear axle. Wasn't that hard to do, did it at my campsite. A couple of comments on your comments.

Trailer uses steel brake lines, cars and trucks same. Trailer uses brake hoses, cars and trucks same. Brake pads, rotors and calipers same again. IMHO mechanically these are essentially the same components just in different packaging. Where we do have a significant component difference is how the hydraulic pressure is created, single stroke master cylinders for TV brakes vs. electric motors and a pump in our trailer actuator to create pressure. We also have the controller to sense the request for braking and create the signal to the actuator to start creating pressure. This is the big difference and then we want to coordinate the two independant braking systems.

Using the same "plumbing" on our TV's we should expect the same:

"the effect of brake hose compliance on our trailers is to create more brake delay on application, and slightly reduce the speed with which the brakes are released."

I do not see this as my TV's braking habits or expectations. My 2005 Dodge has about 120,000 miles on the original brakes, performing as I expect them to.

The areas that I would advise an owner with disc brakes to review:
Controller to actuator compatibility, must be checked. My dealer sold me an incompatible (non listed) controller, why, I think they were just not used to working with disc systems. Now I have Maxbrake.
Wiring, wiring and wiring. These connections must be 1st class.
Hoses, several discussions here about short hoses and their problems.
And for the possibly most challanging, are your brakes COMPLETELY bled? While my profession is not braking, my profession DOES involve another DOT 3 based single stroke hydraulic systems (automotive clutches) and I cannot over emphasize how important and detremental air bubbles are in these systems. In our TV brakes, we use a single (master cylinder) stroke to create braking pressure in the lines but in our trailer the controller tells the actuator to run and the trailer could be 1/2 air in the lines and the pump just keeps pumping and pumping compressing the air in the lines and eventually (read delay) creating braking pressure. Also a possible source of brake delay in a correctly functioning hydraulic system would be rotor runout. If excessive runout existed the caliper pistons would be slightly in a retracted position as the wobbling rotor pushes the pads away from the runout. This extra air gap requires more time to press the pads against the rotor compared to a true running rotor that had a minimum gap.

I wish I had an ultrasound gizmo that I could put on the system and from the outside detect or prove that air exists in these systems, ain't got it. Air = delay, period.

I will comfortably state that IMHO the mere flow of DOT 3 out of a bleed screw is not a guarntee that all air has been expelled.

Going back to the OP's original complaint of intermittant brake locking up or drag IMHO a single wheel incident must point to components confined to the indivudual wheels brake components and supply hose.

If I was to buy a X-Mas gift for a fellow RV'er it would be TPMS that monitors internal wheel temp and a point and shoot temp gun.
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