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04-29-2009, 10:05 AM
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#1
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1 Rivet Member
2005 19' Safari
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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Electronic Brakes Not Working So Well...
The new season is here and I'm getting the trailer ready to rock and hopefully roll, and stop.
On our 2nd to last trip last season, I noticed once in a while that I would loose my electronic breaks. Hit a bounce in the road and they would come back.
On our final trip last season, they just went out and wouldn't come back with a bump in the road.
We have a 2005 19' Bambi and it is pulled by a 2005 Chevy 2500HD. The electronic break control is a Tekonsha P3.
The display on the controler would litterally turn red and say 'No Electronic Brakes'.
Last season I went through and tried to find a short somewhere in the wiring.
I elimnated a short existing on the truck.
I cleaned the contacts of the 7-way plug.
When the trailer is all hooked up, everything functions (brake lights, turn lights, hazards) on the trailer.
When I tested the hook up to the truck with a DMM, I was getting voltage on all 6 leads.
As the season progressed last year, I noticed that I had to continue to increase the amount of juice going to the electronic breaks to get any sort of breaking power.
Access to the wiring in the electronic breaks is not easy to get to. So I haven't been able to test for a short from the plug in to the truck to the breaks.
Also to be frank, the manual that came with the trailer isn't super clear. It looks like it is a photo copy of a photo copy of a photo copy.
Any help or suggestions on where to hunt down my lack of breaks would be most appreciative.
Thanks,
Chris
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04-29-2009, 01:43 PM
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#2
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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Hi Chris and welcome to the forums..
I know you said you cleaned the 7way plug but is it possible you still have a connection problem at this specific terminal? Just by design this connection is poor so if there is resistence between the contacts or the terminals on the trailer are spread apart enough to lose connection on bumps you will end up with no brakes. The controller will see this too and tell you when the circuit is open. Before you start probing around everywhere else I would look at this area once again. There is an update bullett style that i have thought about converting to. I know Andy swears by this update and could probably supply you with the parts necessary to switch over.
Good luck
Vinnie
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04-29-2009, 01:48 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2011 34' Classic
Westchester Cty.NY
, / Miami FL
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,122
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put a long cord on the breakaway switch and pull it on a slow roll. if you now have brakes, i'd recheck the brake wire connections as mentioned.
ps, dont leave that breakaway switch unplugged more than a few minutes it will harm the magnets in the brakes.
__________________
Ricky
2012 F150 Super Crew 5-1/2' bed Ecoboost 4x4 3.73 elec. lock diff. Propride hitch
give life. kidney & pancreas transplant 9/9/06
Ingrid-my unofficial '"World's Oldest Streamer" 1909-2008 R.I.P.
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04-29-2009, 02:04 PM
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#4
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richinny
put a long cord on the breakaway switch and pull it on a slow roll. if you now have brakes, i'd recheck the brake wire connections as mentioned.
ps, dont leave that breakaway switch unplugged more than a few minutes it will harm the magnets in the brakes.
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Isn't the breakaway switch all or nothing? If those point contacts come together you will supply the drums with 12 volts and an abrupt stop right?
Just trying to visualize your test..
Thanks Vinnie
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04-29-2009, 02:14 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2005 30' Classic
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlamica
Hi Chris and welcome to the forums..
I know you said you cleaned the 7way plug but is it possible you still have a connection problem at this specific terminal? Just by design this connection is poor so if there is resistence between the contacts or the terminals on the trailer are spread apart enough to lose connection on bumps you will end up with no brakes. The controller will see this too and tell you when the circuit is open. Before you start probing around everywhere else I would look at this area once again. There is an update bullett style that i have thought about converting to. I know Andy swears by this update and could probably supply you with the parts necessary to switch over.
Good luck
Vinnie
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I agree.
On my last trailer (non-AS) I was having break problems and cleaned the plug with no change.
In looking more closely at the plug however, I found loose clamp screws where the wires connect into the back of the plug housing, as well as corrosion. Cleaning the connectors & wires, applying dielectric grease and tightening teh connectors properly solved the problem.
Brian.
__________________
Brian & Connie Mitchell
2005 Classic 30'
Hensley Arrow / Centramatics
2008 GMC Sierra SLT 2500HD,4x4,Crew Cab, Diesel, Leer cap.
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04-29-2009, 02:21 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2011 34' Classic
Westchester Cty.NY
, / Miami FL
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlamica
Isn't the breakaway switch all or nothing? If those point contacts come together you will supply the drums with 12 volts and an abrupt stop right?
Just trying to visualize your test..
Thanks Vinnie
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this will test the hard to get to wiring from the b/a switch to the brakes. it also tests the b/a switch. yes, it will be a full application of the brakes as if you hit the button on the controller.
__________________
Ricky
2012 F150 Super Crew 5-1/2' bed Ecoboost 4x4 3.73 elec. lock diff. Propride hitch
give life. kidney & pancreas transplant 9/9/06
Ingrid-my unofficial '"World's Oldest Streamer" 1909-2008 R.I.P.
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04-29-2009, 02:47 PM
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#7
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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Years ago i had a fifth wheel trailer and we pulled off into a rest stop parking lot near coo's bay oregon. While eating lunch i removed my folding chair from the back of the truck to enjoy the views.The truck was turned a bit to the left while parked. Once we left I tucked the chair back under the fifth wheel hitch area.We pulled out of there making a sweeping left turn. As the truck straightened out i bet i was doing 15 - 20 mph and all of a sudden everything came to a screaching halt.. noise.. bang and some very surprised looks on our faces. Once i got out to inspect what the heck just happened i realized that the break away cable was pulled out when we straightened up. Wow.. that was a great test. Heres the problem. The rear axle didnt survive the event. Both tires on the rear axle were towed our severely! We actually had to stay there with the trailer and find a supplier for the axle so i could replace it and get home. What an ordeal..
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04-29-2009, 03:15 PM
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#8
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1 Rivet Member
2005 19' Safari
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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Everyone really seems to be leaning towards the plug.
I definately see the potential problems of engaging the breakaway will in tow, but this actually seems to be a 'go or no go' test for the breaks.
To keep from busting any axles and tearing any tires if I put the truck and tailer on a slight decline, engaged the breakaway, put the truck into neutral, the trailer should be able to hold the truck?
My plug is a Bargman. Assuming it is the plug, where can I get a replacement? Is this something I can pick up at my local RV supplier?
Keep the thoughts coming!
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04-29-2009, 03:19 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange
, California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddler3d
Everyone really seems to be leaning towards the plug.
I definately see the potential problems of engaging the breakaway will in tow, but this actually seems to be a 'go or no go' test for the breaks.
To keep from busting any axles and tearing any tires if I put the truck and tailer on a slight decline, engaged the breakaway, put the truck into neutral, the trailer should be able to hold the truck?
My plug is a Bargman. Assuming it is the plug, where can I get a replacement? Is this something I can pick up at my local RV supplier?
Keep the thoughts coming!
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The plug should be available at any auto parts store. It is not an uncommon item.
Bill
__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA
https://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
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04-29-2009, 03:56 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2005 30' Classic
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddler3d
Everyone really seems to be leaning towards the plug.
I definately see the potential problems of engaging the breakaway will in tow, but this actually seems to be a 'go or no go' test for the breaks.
To keep from busting any axles and tearing any tires if I put the truck and tailer on a slight decline, engaged the breakaway, put the truck into neutral, the trailer should be able to hold the truck?
My plug is a Bargman. Assuming it is the plug, where can I get a replacement? Is this something I can pick up at my local RV supplier?
Keep the thoughts coming!
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Any RV dealer should have it - but don't forget, the problem could be the socket side on your two vehicle as well.
Brian
__________________
Brian & Connie Mitchell
2005 Classic 30'
Hensley Arrow / Centramatics
2008 GMC Sierra SLT 2500HD,4x4,Crew Cab, Diesel, Leer cap.
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05-18-2009, 07:31 AM
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#11
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1 Rivet Member
2005 19' Safari
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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Update here...
I replaced the 7-way connection to the trailer.
I pulled the break away switch, as mentioned in the above posts, and the breaks engaged and held the trailer.
I repacked the bearing and cleaned out and inspected the actual breaks. All appeared fine.
I applied dielectric grease to the truck and trailer connections.
On Friday I hooked up the trailer and backed it into the alley and we started to pull away. Breaks were working.
No more than 200yards away from the house, the break control turns red and shows 'no electronic breaks'. Occasionally we'd hit a bump in the road and the control would show we have breaks.
Here is the kicker. We could drive slowly, open windows, tap on the breaks and hear them engage! They weren't applying as much breaking force as I would like, but they were engaging.
We're on the road again this weekend. Any thoughts on where to trouble shoot next would be great!
Cheers,
Chris
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05-18-2009, 08:16 AM
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#12
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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Hello Chris,
Sorry to hear that didnt fix the problem. Now your going to have to trace that brake wire on the trailer side all the way back to the wheels. If the controller is not recognizing the brakes and its seeing an open then you probably have a poor connection in that blue wire. If you have an ohm meter with some long leads you might connect at the trailer plug for the brake wire and go all the way back to a wheel and tap into the brake wire back there. With the ohm meter reading normal 0-2 ohms wiggle the wiring if you can see it or get to it and see if it goes open or loses a connection. Somewhere you will find an open. The brake controller shouldnt lie so its losing a signal somewhere. The umbilical is the usual suspect.
Vinnie
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05-18-2009, 08:37 AM
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#13
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1 Rivet Member
2005 19' Safari
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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Thank you Vinnie for the response!
Here is my question. The umbilcal runs along under the front a frame and then disappears, through a massive glob of caulk, into the trailer. I'm guessing it shows up in the trailer in the area where the fresh tank is and the water pump is.
We have the sofa option, and not the dinnette. It isn't easy to get into this area, that I know of.
Your sugesting that I check the continutiy between the trailer plug and the connection somewhere behind the sofa and then check the continuity between the spot behind the sofa and the connection near the magnet in the brakes themselves?
In theory I would think that the electronic brake cable would come into the trailer and then terminate in some sort of junction box where the break feeds are spliced together. Am I right?
Thank you!
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05-18-2009, 04:06 PM
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#14
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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Hi Paddler3d,
Somebody with more experience than I on the specifics of your rig will have to step in. That might be it right there. If it has a junction block it might be nothing more that a loose screw. I was just thinking that if continuity is monitored while performing some kind of wiggle test (maybe in the area of the juction if its equipped that way) might shed light on the problem area. Im curious about the ground to the tow vehicle too? Does the brake controller look at just the voltage going out or does it feed back through the ground circuit too? I would think that if you had a bad ground you would have dimming running lights and brake lamps. You should have got a wiring diagram in your manual. Maybe you can trace the circuit that way.
Good luck
Vinnie
Quote:
Originally Posted by paddler3d
Thank you Vinnie for the response!
Here is my question. The umbilcal runs along under the front a frame and then disappears, through a massive glob of caulk, into the trailer. I'm guessing it shows up in the trailer in the area where the fresh tank is and the water pump is.
We have the sofa option, and not the dinnette. It isn't easy to get into this area, that I know of.
Your sugesting that I check the continutiy between the trailer plug and the connection somewhere behind the sofa and then check the continuity between the spot behind the sofa and the connection near the magnet in the brakes themselves?
In theory I would think that the electronic brake cable would come into the trailer and then terminate in some sort of junction box where the break feeds are spliced together. Am I right?
Thank you!
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05-18-2009, 06:41 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
Princeton
, New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,070
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The first place I would look for an electrical problem as the one you are describing would be the blue wire connection at the brake controller, them that wires connection inside the truck plug at the rear. You have a loose wire.
If you pulled the safety brake away pin and the trailer brakes LOCKED, and I me LOCKED to the point the tires would drag, the problem is forward of the trailer.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles
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05-18-2009, 07:08 PM
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#16
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Site Team
2002 25' Safari
Dewey
, Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,606
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I would check the connector on your TV and the plug going into it for corrosion. It is the most likely place for a bad connection.
__________________
Richard
Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
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05-18-2009, 09:38 PM
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#17
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19,977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddler3d
Occasionally we'd hit a bump in the road and the control would show we have breaks.
Chris
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Tap test the brake controller. Intermittant open circuit is a possibility. Inspect the red and blue connections at the unit, solder or good crimp is in order.
__________________
"You don't know where you've been until you leave, enjoy life" RLC
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05-18-2009, 10:17 PM
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#18
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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The toughest part of this is intermittent. We have folks come into the dealership everyday with intermittent somethings.. Until you can actually get the component to fail its an educated guess. We use the wiggle test as much as possible under load conditions but even then sometimes it just has to fail. Keep messin with things and you will find it. Usually its something that the local guy did when he was hooking something up rather than the manufactured installed item.
Vin
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05-21-2009, 08:04 AM
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#19
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1 Rivet Member
2005 19' Safari
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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Problem resolved!
In the end it was not an electrical problem!
When I pulled the breakaway switch and it engaged, it had just barely engaged. I hadn't tested it hard enough.
What I found was the breaks were sereverly underadjusted. The intermitent issue was because I would be able to engage the breaks, but the break controler was really telling me 'I had no breaks' and not 'they are not hooked up'. That was why I could hear them, but they weren't doing anything.
I now have a real good understanding of how the electronic breaks work and I know the wiring is good in the tow vehicle and the trailer.
I have very specific concerns about the actual breaks.
The break shoes have maybe 1/8 - 3/16" left on them. I can't find out there what the thickness of the actual break shoes should be. What should they be?
To get the breaks to have functional stopping effectiveness, the controller is set to 8.7v. Is that good or bad?
The breaks themselves are functional but look pretty rough. One of the plastic plugs where you adjust the spring tension was missing and the adjuster spring and adjuster assembly were pretty heavily rusted. I'm simply leaning towards replacing the breaks and the drums and just not messing with them any more, except for regular maintenance.
Who makes the better breaks out there?
Where are the breaks marked with their size?
Any tips or suggestions from folks that have replaced their breaks?
You guys have been helpful!
Chris
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05-21-2009, 08:33 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
Princeton
, New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,070
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If you are satisfied the electrical system is working just adjust the brakes and try again.
Your shoes are OK with those thicknesses. If you hear the magnets they are working. Missing the adjuster cap is nothing. Rust on the adjuster is nothing as long as the adjuster can be turned.
Jack up one side of the trailer. While turning a wheel adjust the brake until you can not turn the wheel. Now back off on the adjuster 3 or 4 points on the star wheel of the adjuster. The wheel should turn freely with little or no scrapping. Adjust the others and go for a ride. A test while the trailer is up is to spin the wheel and have someone short the 12 volt and the brake terminal on the trailer cord. The wheel should slam to a stop. If you do this use at least a #12 or larger wire. A smaller wire will melt in you hands.
8 amps applied manually on adjusted brakes should cause the wheels to lock at about 25 mph. Your controller should be set just below what ever setting causes the wheel to lock at 25 mph when fully applied manually.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles
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