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Old 12-03-2014, 08:37 PM   #127
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Gary,
The question of delayed engagement kind of moved from the accepted air in system problem to a notion of drainback into the actuator that is similar to apparently common problems with street rods and dragsters where the master cylinder is lower than the calipers. This led to a suggestion of utilizing a residual pressure valve on the line out of the MC. Steve's going to try a 2 psi one out.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:44 PM   #128
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Oh, Ken, we could start ripping them too, but if you're happy, I wouldn't want to bring you down.
Don't worry, I'm usually happy about something. If not, I'll make something up. I'm very gullible when it comes to stuff I make up, because at my age, It only takes a couple minutes for me to forget I made it up.

Carry on
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Bleed Some Brakes.

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P.S. I'm not ripping them, I'm just getting a kick about reading about them.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:54 PM   #129
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FYI,

Here are some test results with a couple controllers, actuators, and disc vs drum as well as ABS. It's an independent review of Tuson ABS, but it has some really good analyses and charts at the bottom for comparison. FWIW

"DirecLink from Tuson RV Brakes has Finally ABS Trailer Brakes for fast smooth safer stops, Anti-Lock-Brakes for trailers,ABS brakes for horse trailers, DirecLink trailer brake controller networks with trucks computer for faster braking and diagnosis
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:14 PM   #130
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On my BMW muddersickle, here is how I overcame the 'bubble' issue.. on the dual caliper/dual/4 piston caliper. The 'objective' is to fill the 'lower point' of the caliper.

- find 2 boards, #1 giving full depression of the pistons.. or one which will totally 'seat' the caliper piston(s), #2 1/2 the thickness of the rotor
- Pump fluid to furthest point in the piping system.
- remove furthest caliper and insert a board #2 so that compresses the caliper piston(s) on the opposite side from the 'vent'
- position the 'caliper' so that the 'vent line'/bleed valve is at the highest point
- pulse the activator to fill the caliper lower cavity.
- leave bleeder open and depress the lower caliper using the board
- pulse the activator again.. depress caliper as before
- when no more 'bubbles' are discharged, insert the board #1.
- verify no more bubbles discharged through the bleeder
- install caliper
- repeat on other calipers moving toward the caliper closest to the activator
- Should no longer have air in calipers...

Well, it worked on muddersickles....
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:19 PM   #131
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Oh.. anyone hear of 'speed bleeders'? they really do work well!
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:46 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by cwf View Post
On my BMW muddersickle, here is how I overcame the 'bubble' issue.. on the dual caliper/dual/4 piston caliper. The 'objective' is to fill the 'lower point' of the caliper.

- find 2 boards, #1 giving full depression of the pistons.. or one which will totally 'seat' the caliper piston(s), #2 1/2 the thickness of the rotor
- Pump fluid to furthest point in the piping system.
- remove furthest caliper and insert a board #2 so that compresses the caliper piston(s) on the opposite side from the 'vent'
- position the 'caliper' so that the 'vent line'/bleed valve is at the highest point
- pulse the activator to fill the caliper lower cavity.
- leave bleeder open and depress the lower caliper using the board
- pulse the activator again.. depress caliper as before
- when no more 'bubbles' are discharged, insert the board #1.
- verify no more bubbles discharged through the bleeder
- install caliper
- repeat on other calipers moving toward the caliper closest to the activator
- Should no longer have air in calipers...

Well, it worked on muddersickles....
Channing! That is exactly the "dangerous" method I was hesitant to recommend waaaay upthread. It is dangerous in that, if one isn't careful, doesn't understand pressurized fluid, and makes a mistake they can easily pop out the pistons and maybe injure themselves......but since you put it out there.....when bleeding the caliper, turn it upside down until the inner is purged of air, then turn it right side up to bleed the outer. You really need 3 or 4 hands (a helper) and be VERY careful not to stress the rubber line while manipulating the caliper. AND KEEP THE BOARD SECURELY IN PLACE between the piston faces. Use a board thickness near the thickness of the rotor + both pads.

This will definitely work, but perform at your own risk.

Edit: Most of our actuators are capable of putting out 1600 psi. That translates to over 17,600 pounds of clamping force. KEEP YOUR HANDS AND FINGERS OUT OF THE CALIPER. That's more than enough crushing power to remove fingers. If you don't fully understand this procedure and are uncomfortable with it, don't do it.
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:00 PM   #133
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Disc brake discussion

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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
I'm not fightin' you.. I have no experience working on anything with the MC lower than the caliper. BUT, I'm not sure the actuator isn't slightly higher than the calipers on the AS.....in my minds eye, as it's not here to really look at.



Sorry, tone is hard to see in a post sometimes, I am not even a little into fighting over this. i am kind of lazy and tend to keep things short when typing and sometimes my posts look abrupt when I don't mean for them to.

My only point was that in use, the two pound RPV's work well. 2 PSI valves are standard fair among car modifiers on disk brakes.

It is considered time tested and a proven common practice.

It could be that the 2 psi might prove to throw up some problems in AS use, but I don't think it will.



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Old 12-03-2014, 10:04 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by J. Morgan View Post


Sorry, tone is hard to see in a post sometimes, I am not even a little into fighting over this.

My only point was that in use, the two pound RPV's work well. 2 PSI valves are standard fair among car modifiers on disk brakes.

It is considered time tested and a proven common practice.

It could be that the 2 psi might prove to throw up some problems in AS use, but I don't think it will.



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We're good...I meant fightin' as in disagreeing.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:55 AM   #135
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Oh.. anyone hear of 'speed bleeders'? they really do work well!

Cwf,

Yes, heard of them. Bleed screws with check valves built in. If we didn't have the inboard caliper air trap these can aid in bleeding.

Gary
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:00 AM   #136
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Hey, guys.. listen to Ken!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
Channing! That is exactly the "dangerous" method I was hesitant to recommend waaaay upthread. It is dangerous in that, if one isn't careful, doesn't understand pressurized fluid, and makes a mistake they can easily pop out the pistons and maybe injure themselves......but since you put it out there.....when bleeding the caliper, turn it upside down until the inner is purged of air, then turn it right side up to bleed the outer. You really need 3 or 4 hands (a helper) and be VERY careful not to stress the rubber line while manipulating the caliper. AND KEEP THE BOARD SECURELY IN PLACE between the piston faces. Use a board thickness near the thickness of the rotor + both pads.

This will definitely work, but perform at your own risk.

Edit: Most of our actuators are capable of putting out 1600 psi. That translates to over 17,600 pounds of clamping force. KEEP YOUR HANDS AND FINGERS OUT OF THE CALIPER. That's more than enough crushing power to remove fingers. If you don't fully understand this procedure and are uncomfortable with it, don't do it.
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:32 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by cwf View Post
On my BMW muddersickle, here is how I overcame the 'bubble' issue.. on the dual caliper/dual/4 piston caliper. The 'objective' is to fill the 'lower point' of the caliper.

- find 2 boards, #1 giving full depression of the pistons.. or one which will totally 'seat' the caliper piston(s), #2 1/2 the thickness of the rotor
- Pump fluid to furthest point in the piping system.
- remove furthest caliper and insert a board #2 so that compresses the caliper piston(s) on the opposite side from the 'vent'
- position the 'caliper' so that the 'vent line'/bleed valve is at the highest point
- pulse the activator to fill the caliper lower cavity.
- leave bleeder open and depress the lower caliper using the board
- pulse the activator again.. depress caliper as before
- when no more 'bubbles' are discharged, insert the board #1.
- verify no more bubbles discharged through the bleeder
- install caliper
- repeat on other calipers moving toward the caliper closest to the activator
- Should no longer have air in calipers...

Well, it worked on muddersickles....
Just my opinion, but don't think this would be safe using wood because it's not strong enough to withstand the pressure. Maybe a spare rotor?
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Old 12-04-2014, 08:37 AM   #138
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Just my opinion, but don't think this would be safe using wood because it's not strong enough to withstand the pressure. Maybe a spare rotor?
That's a good caution. I think if hardwood is used and you keep the pads installed, it would be fine, but just having the piston cups pressing on the wood could be problematic. A spare rotor, or other steel object would be better, IMO.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:04 AM   #139
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As an instructor I would caution my students, immediately after introducing myself, "This machine will KILL you if you do not respect it. If you have any questions or doubts, always ask. "

I apparently disregarded that rule by not stating that clearly....again. My fault.

I now return you to friendly banter...I hope.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:41 AM   #140
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Would it be possible to get a machine shop to tap a hole for a bleed screw in the inner calipers?

Why isn't Dexter addressing this issue or do their current line of calipers have bleed screws in the inner caliper now?

Kelvin
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