DirecLink Brake controller...

[C5Don]

Secguru: No, don't think that is what I said. First let me say that if you created a better mousetrap and had an advantage over other vendors, spent a lot of money inventing this mousetrap, would you tell others how you did it? I don't think so. So if your question is; if you are standing still where you need little brake force if you push real hard on the brake pedal will you get more brake blue wire? The answer is no. But the remainder of your comments are entirely correct. Do you get amazing level of responsiveness? Yes. Does the braking levels at all kinds of driving conditions always seem to be "just right"? Yes. Do you get increases in braking wihen you press harder on the TV brake pedal? Yes. Again, I can't tell you how it works but I think your conclusion is correct. This controller "knows" what you TV is doing, unlike anything else on the market. When you have the hydraulic disc brake system, it knows what the hydraulic brake controller is doing. If you have the ABS module, it knows what the ABS system is doing. I know lots of you connect to electric brakes, and that is fine and at least you are taking advantage of the vehicle knowledge. DirecLink is part of a "system" of "plug and play" modules for what we like to say "get what you pay for, buy only what you need". So all the discussions on this thread are right on track, asking all the right stuff, but DirecLink and its complimenatry modules are just the first of what is happening in trailers. Your TV has multiple systems that all intercommunicate to provide improved performance and functionality, and DirecLink integrates the TV with the trailer to provide superior functionality and performance. I know you are right now just seeing the leading edge and discussing brake controllers, but buckle up, this is just the beginning. I can say one thing, I have my "own products" coming soon that reside in the trailer, utilize the same networking, and as such could clearly integrate into the "DirecLink" system. Some won't care, and that is fine, but DL Brake Controller is just one product withih a fully distributed control system. Your opinions are "extremely important" as are you "requirements" and your "desired features" of future systems and what you feel is important, and just "nice to have". You guys keep us honest, as what you think is important, not whay I think. Don't know how many vendors watch these threads, but you guys clearly have "direct input to the future" so please say "exactly what you think" as it can affect the directon of traler systems.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by C5Don

Secguru: No, don't think that is what I said. First let me say that if you created a better mousetrap and had an advantage over other vendors, spent a lot of money inventing this mousetrap, would you tell others how you did it? I don't think so. So if your question is; if you are standing still where you need little brake force if you push real hard on the brake pedal will you get more brake blue wire? The answer is no. But the remainder of your comments are entirely correct. Do you get amazing level of responsiveness? Yes. Does the braking levels at all kinds of driving conditions always seem to be "just right"? Yes. Do you get increases in braking wihen you press harder on the TV brake pedal? Yes. Again, I can't tell you how it works but I think your conclusion is correct. This controller "knows" what you TV is doing, unlike anything else on the market. When you have the hydraulic disc brake system, it knows what the hydraulic brake controller is doing. If you have the ABS module, it knows what the ABS system is doing. I know lots of you connect to electric brakes, and that is fine and at least you are taking advantage of the vehicle knowledge. DirecLink is part of a "system" of "plug and play" modules for what we like to say "get what you pay for, buy only what you need". So all the discussions on this thread are right on track, asking all the right stuff, but DirecLink and its complimenatry modules are just the first of what is happening in trailers. Your TV has multiple systems that all intercommunicate to provide improved performance and functionality, and DirecLink integrates the TV with the trailer to provide superior functionality and performance. I know you are right now just seeing the leading edge and discussing brake controllers, but buckle up, this is just the beginning. I can say one thing, I have my "own products" coming soon that reside in the trailer, utilize the same networking, and as such could clearly integrate into the "DirecLink" system. Some won't care, and that is fine, but DL Brake Controller is just one product withih a fully distributed control system. Your opinions are "extremely important" as are you "requirements" and your "desired features" of future systems and what you feel is important, and just "nice to have". You guys keep us honest, as what you think is important, not whay I think. Don't know how many vendors watch these threads, but you guys clearly have "direct input to the future" so please say "exactly what you think" as it can affect the directon of traler systems.

Oh..., I don't think we can do that! We're all very shy

Thanks for paying attention and keep us informed of new stuff.

[slowmover]

For travel trailers mobility is the first in order of importance as to function. And within said mobility being able to stop (as with any other vehicle type) predictably, reliably and in the shortest distance in a straight line is itself foremost.

But this is not how trailer braking systems are designed, much less perceived.

It would be difficult to conceive a difficult situation en route that is not mainly solved by slowing. To save that vehicle, the TT, from destruction.

Too much of this burden is assumed by the tow vehicle, primarily that of being reliable.

Within said reliability one of the great Internet RV threads is that of JBarca (John Barca) on Woodalls, entitled, Independent Brake Wire Feed Upgrade, simply for the examination of how poorly designed/executed are traditional TT brake electrical systems (as simple upgrades greatly change performance, chiiefly reliability).

One learns one cannot assume 13V at the brake even on brand-new trailer brakes . . and it's only a matter of very small cost to have been rectified at the manufacturer.

It might be a toss-up as to which is more important, tires or brakes (I'll vote tires), but as the chief function of a travel trailer is that it is mobile shelter, it beggars belief that even the simplest, cheapest "brakes" (charitably to call electric drums) are not given full support by way of quality wiring design & installation.

A mobile shelter that remains intact has continuing value. Failed brakes and inferior brakes cannot adequately support the highest mission of a TT: shelter from the elements as unreliability and unpredictability too closely threaten that foremost virtue.

As this thread is about a specific brake controller (the thread evolving about type) the integration of brake application force/time via strategy is central to maintenance of any mobile shelter (is how I would characterize the importance of it as argument).

The second most important TT system is that of water. And it may rival the inherent problems around mobility for removing a TT from service (skin leaks, and leaks within pressurized plumbing). If we keep this comparison to skin leaks, then actions of the part of the owner to restore integrity can take place over time. Even failed plumbing systems in TT's can sometimes be overcome.

The actions of brakes are of immediate consequence . . are likely irreversible. There is no luxury of time.

More specifically, the stopping distance of a TV-TT combination should not be so dependent on the TV itself via by brake type, brake reliability or brake performance.

While it may not be desirable to have commercial vehicle brake standards applied to TT's, one can ponder the irony of the loss of a profit on a load of goods over the loss of shelter for a family as to which is of the greater importance.

The assumption that the loss of of the service of a TT is remedied by alternatives is itself fraught with perilous assumptions.

Brakes and brake controllers -- their type, design & performance -- are central to what a travel trailer is.

.

[Gene]

Apparently it wouldn't work on our '07 Tundra, so I suppose I shouldn't even think about this any further (I suppose I could call the company, but the price is also a reason not to). Or maybe it does if it works in the older Tacoma except for transmission temp—I get that on the dashboard anyway.

But I do have concerns about braking. I agree with Rednax the trailer drums brakes aren't very good and for that reason I think a better controller may improve braking. Our P3 works fine, but maybe this or another controller would work better.

I wonder how the Ford and GM OEM controllers work—are they like this one?

C5Don seems to have some of the proprietary knowledge, but maybe does not work for Direclink. I can understand how he can't answer questions about the guts of this thing, but I don't understand how it is not possible to answer what I thought was a simple question—does this brake the trailer the same way the TV is braked, i.e., proportionally. After reading the answer I am no more educated than I was before. Our truck is supposed to automatically downshift when going down a steep grade; does this controller apply the trailer brakes when the transmission downshifts?

And to those who have bought this—the part that operates it—where do you install it? Does it have a hook that you attach to the dashboard, Velcro, a holder? One of the problems with all brake controllers is finding a place to mount it where you can actually see it and operate the manual switch easily.

Gene

[dznf0g]

Gene, The "box" is zip tied up under the dash and the control unit, which is about the size of an old CB mic, slips onto a plastic mount which is 3M style double sided taped to any convenient location on the dash.

Oh, and I suspect the OEM ITBCs are similarly programmed as they interact with the stability control, provide sway control, and under some circumstances will apply trailer brakes during a sway or yaw event independent of pedal apply.

[Gene]

Thanks dzn'. I expect the OEM units are similar, and I have no intention of buying a new TV for a few years, but was curious. The business plan of the Direclink should take into consideration that eventually their market will shrink and shrink as more and more vehicles have OEM units. Maybe they will supply them.

Gene

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by Secguru

~~
There is no dangerous time lag such as from common pendulum systems (Tekonsha P3, etc.).

~~

Let me be clear about what I am saying and what I'm not. I don't pretend the P3 is the most advanced brake controller out there or that it does any sort of magic, but if it's configured properly there isn't a time lag between moving the brake pedal and when the trailer brakes START to be applied (other than response time for the magnets to mechanically engage the shoes) and there's no pendulum in a P3.

[Gene]

DKB', that is interesting about the P3. When I bought it I thought there was some sort of inertial system in it which would start applying the trailer brakes as soon as the truck starting slowing down, but I've never noticed it doing that. I may have gotten my controllers mixed up as this was when I was buying the trailer and knew very little.

Gene

[Garfield]

DirecLink is not proportional -- it's inertial.

What I like about it is that it has an adjustment (gain) for normal speeds and a separate one for low speeds. This works well with my Hensley.

I also like the fact it reads the transmission temp.

Last I heard though the company is restructuring, so I wouldn't buy just yet...

[dznf0g]

How do you figure it's inertial when you can mount the components any old way you want?
It does read the accelerometers in the vehicle, but that's way different than an "inertial" brake controller. Presumably it reads, in addition to the accelerometers, yaw sensors, master cyl pressure sensor, road speed, abs on or off, etc..........
It hooks into and reads the data stream of the truck. Their algorithm COULD read and account for literally hundreds of inputs.

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

DKB', that is interesting about the P3. When I bought it I thought there was some sort of inertial system in it which would start applying the trailer brakes as soon as the truck starting slowing down, but I've never noticed it doing that. I may have gotten my controllers mixed up as this was when I was buying the trailer and knew very little.

Gene

P3 has an accelerometer (not pendulum-based) and also a timed system for the initial application of trailer braking before deceleration begins. How much braking it does before the accelerometer detects deceleration depends on the gain and boost settings.

I find that I like to have a fairly high gain set, but with no boost (B0) in town, and B1 at highway speeds. B1 in town causes the trailer to jerk a bit when applying the brakes in stop/go traffic, but is about right on the highway.

This means I have to fiddle with it from time to time, which means that Maxbrake and Direclink are better just because of that, never mind the better detection (or inference) of actual pedal pressure, etc. However, "not the best" <> "chopped liver".

[Gene]

Maybe I've never noticed it applying the brakes because of the way I set it. The first way i did it was too strong, so I backed it off one setting and it seemed fine. I never fiddle with it. I do like the idea of 2 settings on the Directlink. The P3 is mounted underneath the dash and that means I don't adjust it for conditions because it is in an inconvenient place. No place on the front of the dash for it (not sure there would be for any brake controller) and I didn't want to drill into the top of the dash and screw it down there. If I were doing that now, I would and when I sold the truck, I'd just put black screws in the holes—hadn't thought of that 4 1/2 years ago.

Maybe I don't understand proportional either. I assume it means it applies the brakes in proportion to the pressure on the pedal. I would thus assume that nonproportional means it is either on or off, i.e., lock the trailer brakes or no brakes. That doesn't make sense to me, so maybe it just follows what the truck electronics tell it and it acts proportionally, but the controller itself is not proportional though the results are.

Just did some Googling and it doesn't have any discounts anywhere—$350. There are also a lot of threads on a variety of forums about it including this thread.

Gene

[dznf0g]

So I went back to the Sept. 2011 Trailer Life article on the Direclink and it says, "The first network based brake control system, the DirecLink synchronizes with the tow vehicle's computer network and uses multiple strategic data parameters to activate the trailer's brakes in precise PROPORTION to the tow vehicle's deceleration."

For whatever that is worth.

[C5Don]

@Rednax: You said it, electric brakes are used for cost reasons on trailers where there are now various electrohydraulic units, which is an improvement and about as good as you can do with todays brake technologies. I can't recall who said it, but yes, the DirecLink result will clearly fell proportional. And all the other comments were accurate on most "traditional" brake controllers, thus use electronic accelerometers which effectively is electronics replacing the pendulum. The firmware inside the brake controller uses multiple vehicle messages, does it's magic, and out comes the PWM control if you don't have a DirecLink capable electrohydraulic actuator connected, and uses DirecLink if a DirecLink capable brake unit is connected. If you somehow "smoke" DirecLink brake controller and actuator go back to traditional "blue wire". Other statements made on 13V and such are right on. If you have "thin wire" or "bad connections" you will notice that 13V at a controller is MUCH less, possible half, at the "point of control" during inrush conditions, and a few volt drop during normal braking is not uncommon. So ya, electric brake wiring may start out good when new, but give it a few DIY brake changes using wire nuts, corroded grounds and such and braking goes to pot. Only DirecLink when used with their Electrohydraulic brake controllers will provide you constant diagnostics on electrical connections, fluid level and too many items to discuss here. But again, it assumes the hydraulic unit exists. I should mention that DirecLink has "multiple interpretations" where one can assume it is referring to the OBDII vehcile network interfaces, but it also refers to the technologies the change "blue wire" into a "contol network" used to communicate with DirecLink capable devices on the trailer. When I reference DirecLink, I am referencing the "blue wire" network. This is how we "talk to brake actuators" and "trailer stuff". Great thread.

[Secguru]

OK, forgive me for this. But my father only gave me two good pieces of advice. He said 1) Never go out with a girl named "Bubbles", and 2) Watch out for anyone who talks around any subject without really saying anything.

Here's another example: Once I was in the hospital for an appendectomy when Jimmy Carter (then President) was giving a speech on the TV. A nurse came into my room, saw him speaking and asked "What is he talking about?". I answered: "I don't know, he didn't say."

Last example: Albert Einstein famously said: "There is no principle of physics that cannot be explained to a 6-year-old in two sentences."

C5Don, you clearly know a lot about the DirecLink product, and between the two threads you have been asked a number of very straight questions, but so far all I'm hearing is techno-gibberish. I hope that you can have somebody who CAN speak about DirecLink start talking about it.

I am immediately in the market for a top of the line brake controller. I plan to buy one this month. But the more I read your posts about it, the more suspicious I become about the product.

OK, Last chance (for me at least):
- Why would I want to buy DirecLink over any other brand (besides that it is easy to install)?
- What does it DO that others do not?
- If it controls brakes better than other controllers, how does it do that (and that does not take an explanation that would violate your non-disclosure unless you are somehow not allowed to disclose what it does that works better). Nobody is asking how it does what it does. Everyone is asking what is it that it does that is any different than any other brake controller.

I am hearing you say that it brakes proportional to brake pedal pressure, but also that it doesn't. I am hearing you say that it senses inertia, but also that it doesn't act like an inertial controller. You imply that its responsiveness is instantaneous, but the inertial thing implies that it could not be.

A few years ago, I got similar non-answers to straightforward questions from a bomb detector manufacturer that also claimed to have the best product but would not answer direct questions. The owner of that firm is in prison now for conducting a fraud on the U.S. and British governments, putting their troops in harms way with an utterly ineffective bomb detector.

Enough with the mystery! I get similarly vague answers when I ask DirecLink the same questions. At this point, I've got to believe that this could all just be a fraud. Why else won't you or DirecLink answer the simple question what makes this a better controller? I'm not talking about how it connects or such. What does it DO that is any different than any other controller?

Could you just kindly give some kind of a straight answer? Otherwise, I have totally lost interest and will just buy a MaxBrake.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Secguru

OK, forgive me for this. But my father only gave me two good pieces of advice. He said 1) Never go out with a girl named "Bubbles", and 2) Watch out for anyone who talks around any subject without really saying anything.

Here's another example: Once I was in the hospital for an appendectomy when Jimmy Carter (then President) was giving a speech on the TV. A nurse came into my room, saw him speaking and asked "What is he talking about?". I answered: "I don't know, he didn't say."

Last example: Albert Einstein famously said: "There is no principle of physics that cannot be explained to a 6-year-old in two sentences."

C5Don, you clearly know a lot about the DirecLink product, and between the two threads you have been asked a number of very straight questions, but so far all I'm hearing is gibberish. I hope that you can have somebody who CAN speak about DirecLink start talking about it.

I am immediately in the market for a top of the line brake controller. I plan to buy one this month. But the more I read your posts about it, the more suspicious I become about the product.

Ummmm, I was thinkin' it....but I didn't say it!

[slowmover]

Why put this guy on the spot? If the manufacturer won't answer your question[s], then move along. No one I know of is unhappy with SMARTBRAKE/MAXBRAKE. The "advantage" of DIRECLINK (being touted) is the addition of an anti-lock module. Warranty, service and diligence in same means more than a detailed explanation.

[C5Don]

Secguru: You must understand there is a lot I can not legally say but your questions are very good ones and the same kind of questions I would likely be asking. They spend a LOT of money developing these products and I wouldn't disclose too much either. What is the difference besides ease of install? Let's talk responsiveness first. The DL unit monitors the vehicle and thus "changes what is uses" based upon braking conditions. Therefore when you are going down the road it effectively has the initial brake values ready to apply based upon what the vehicle is doing at the time. I will have to ask permission to give you more details here.

Then once you start braking it also knows vehicle deceleartion rates, among other things, and thus adjusts braking accordingly, also based upon things you currently adjust on any brake controller, like scaling and such. Yes, if you push harder on you brake pedal the system will respond accordingly.

Then let's say you are going down the highway and "crank up agressiveness". When you pull off the highway, forget to adjust scaling, turn into the gas station and push the brakes you don't skid any tires. It knows.

Yes it also does all that stuff like detecting if blue wire is connected and such. It does monitor various parameters, like trans temp, and provides that feature. Since it relies on vehicle stuff you don't have to level it, alighn it if you kick it or something and so on. In effect install it, set it, and forget about it.

The Command Module (display) also has a convenient flexible cable line on an phone, so you can easily hold it at times if you like to do some manual braking.

Where it will REALLY shine is when you have hydraulic ABS system or other future stuff where will be able to "talk to the trailer" for other things that will make your life easier.

In my coming products I will allow you to return it at a small fee for software/functionality upgrades thus not requiring you to continually buy new products until some hardware change is required. I don't know what the DirecLink people will do, if they will offer this type of service or not, but I "personally" believe the DL benefit is the network. It also gives you all that current monitoring stuff and all that. By the way, when communicating to trailer devices, say their hydraulic unit, it gives you all kinds of information.

The goal is to let you know if something is wrong BEFORE YOU PUSH THE BRAKES, like low fluid level, disconnected sensors, actual brake pressure and all that kind of stuff. The DL people often extend these features as they determine a new menu or something is needed, thus system upgrades would be nice.

The Control Module (display/keypad) actually could be used to work with my products. Ya, why buy multiple devices for "different stuff" when one will do just fine. Now I did my own display, but you will see "sharing of devices" in the future.

So in effect I "dance" because different braking conditions use different information. If you even think you may "improve your trailer brake systems" in the future I would go with DirecLink. I think the P3 people may now sell some type of communications device, likely to get around the blue wire communications patent, so "add up" that stuff and DL might be more competitive.

The guys whom sell DL "do the entire brake system" and the other guys do brake controllers. Whom do you think knows how to "tweak" the system? These guys have the ONLY ABS brake system on trailers and have approval in Europe in their resume.

I think there actually needs to be some "comparisons" on the various systems on "how fast they stop", "what a flat spot on a tire is worth" and all that kind of stuff to facilitate determining if the increase in cost is worth the expense. I think some of that exists, but will have to let the DL people provide that answer.

If I was pulling a "heavy trailer", and depending upon how much I drive around, I would clearly have ABS, even at the expense, as the straight and shorter braking distances, in my mind, would be worth it. But this is a brake controller discussion. There are other features but this is the opinion of an engineer and not a marketing guy, so please be patient. I will try to answer what I can.

[Secguru]

C5Don: Excellent answer! Now I understand and it all makes sense.

I appreciate your answer and am inclined to buy the DirecLink.

[Gene]

C5' (better than being named C4), thanks for being somewhat more intelligible and for breaking up those dense posts into a lot of smaller paragraphs—easier to read.

I'm sure you know a lot about what you are writing about, however, if you can't communicate with us non-engineer types, your efforts go to waste. When I was working, people didn't understand me at times and I had to work hard to communicate with them.

So your last post is better, but still roams around the subject and is not entirely clear.

What I get out of this is:

1. Maxbrake works well.

2. DL is similar and adds ABS.

3. Braking is proportional regardless of confidentiality agreements.

4. Both cost $350.

5. Both probably work better than my P3.

6. DL may or may not work with an '07 Tundra, Maxbrake does.

7. DL reads the vehicle computer and uses that info to brake the trailer, tell me transmission temp and maybe a few other things. Maxbrake may do all or some of that.

8. The DL controls may have a better place on my dash than the P3.

9. Too many "may" statements to make me buy either. Hopefully the price will come down.

10. Don't go out with a girl named "Bubbles" (since I've been with the same woman for 26 years, this was not that useful because going out with any girl regardless of name, would be a very bad idea; however, ladies, never go out with a man named "Ace").

Seems like Prodigy has a $325 one with wireless between the black box and the controls—nice touch because having a multitude of wires for electronic devices blocking the heat, A/C, radio and other things is a pain. Whether the Prodigy is like the DL or Maxbrake is beyond me.

I am concerned because the stopping distances with my present set up are too long for my comfort. Whether the DL or Maxbrake actually shortens the distance should be proven to me with tests by an independent lab. Are such test results available? Other than that, testimonials by Forum members may help.

Gene