Another brake question

[Kalamazookim]

This is a bit long, but I have been trying to chase this problem for a bit.

I have a 2010 27ft FB Classic and I tow with a 2012 RAM 2500 Hemi with the factory tow package.

I was driving down level highway when I went over a bump. I got a notice that the trailer wasn't connected. I pulled over and made sure that the 7 way plug was still inserted. It was, but I pulled it all the way out and reinserted it.

That did not restore the connection, but I figured that I would continue on and get help when I got to the campground.

A little while later, I got a notice that the lights weren't connected. I pulled over, made sure that there was no corrosion I hadn't noticed before. I reconnected and then turned on the 4-way flashers. They worked, so I figured that I did have lights, and I continued on.

At the campground, I called a mobile RV tech and told him of my problems. He told me that it sounded like a truck problem, not the Airstream.

I made an appointment with a RAM service center and they cleaned out the connection and checked the circuits and said that all was good. They recommended that it the problem continues that I make arrangements to have a service center look at the problem with the trailer attached.

Well, it didn't fix the problem. But I was traveling on relatively level ground, so I decided to check it out at the next city.

When I stopped for gas, I decided to call Airstream for advice. Mike told me that if I heard the brakes engaging when I stepped on them, they were working. The person who helped me said he could hear the brakes engaging.

I went in to a RAM dealer yesterday. They said that there was nothing else they could do. Besides, they didn't have room to get the trailer in to the shop.

They said that it sounded like a problem with the Airstream.

Do any of you folks have an idea?

[HowieE]

There are some brake controllers that can give a trailer disconnected error message.

I would contact the controller manufacture and ask how that system works? I suspect they pass a signal through the brake wiring that when opened will give the error message.

If you can manually apply the trailer brakes and feel them while on the brake pedal the truck and trailer systems are working and again would lead me to question the monitoring function of the controller.

[OTRA15]

Have you checked the fuses in your tow vehicle? There are some in our van that control the circuits going to the trailer electrical connector. Your owner's manual should detail the location of the fuse box(es) and a line-by-line label for each fuse.

Next guess would be that you have one or more loose or corroded connections somewhere in your wiring in the tow vehicle's wiring harness, or in the trailer's wiring. I would start looking near the location of the connector where the trailer plugs in. If your tow vehicle has been driven a lot in snowy weather, in states where they use salt on the roads in winter, I would suspect that salt has gotten into your tow vehicle's wiring harness someplace and is causing problems. Hard to diagnose without a labor-intensive check by an experienced auto mechanic at each possible weak link in the chain.

Good luck!

Peter

PS -- You can buy an electrical diagnostic tool which plugs into your tow vehicle's connector at the rear, which will verify which circuits are working:

https://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Pr...or+test+lights

This will let you know if the problem is still in your tow vehicle, or in the trailer, and includes cleaning implements.

[Wingeezer]

I'm not clear on how things ow stand at the end of your explanation.

I think you said that you had confirmed that your four way flashers were working.

You said the person who worked with you said he could hear the trailer rakes working.


So I'm not clear on what it is that is now not working? lights? brakes? both? or are you not sure?

Easy enough to check the lights of course. A simple way of checking the trailer brakes electrically is to hold a compass near each wheel one at a time and have someone apply the trailer brakes. If the brake magnets are receiving power from the truck as they should when brakes are applied, you will see the compass needle swing

If there still are problems and they are of an erratic nature, then it would see that the trailer plug / truck socket still might be causing problems - I think you said the problem started when you hit a large bump and found the plug part way out?


Brian.

[Bill M.]

Is the brake controller built into the Dodge? Or a add on? I do check the trailer brakes every morning by using the manual lever at low speed. And after a lot of towing with this trailer now I can feel when they are or are not working. I keep the headlights on when towing so I can see the running lights on the trailer in the mirror. So I pretty much know fairly soon when I have a failed connection. Maybe just buy and install a new brake controller?

[Kalamazookim]

Thanks for all the ideas.

Here is the main problem - at least as far as I think.

The display inside the truck does not give me information about the brakes.

The lights work. The brakes seem to work. At least the helper told me that he could hear them engaging.

The RAM service people say that the factory installed equipment is working.

Who do I talk to to verify that the brakes ARE really working make it so that I get useable information in my display in the truck?

Thanks.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Kalamazookim

. . .
. . . to verify that the brakes ARE really working
. . .

This part is simple. Hook up the trailer and set the brake gain to Maximum.

Drive over a sandy area on top of a hard pavement like concrete or asphalt.

Engage the trailer brakes manually.

The trailer wheels should lock up and skid in the sand easily. Pull forward to dry pavement and engage the brakes again gently. The trailer should stop your rig easily.

The electronics part is harder to advise on, as I don't have that kind of knowledge, but I think I would start with the 7-pin tester I linked earlier.

Good luck!

Peter

[HowieE]

The above manual test will tell if the brakes are connected electrically but will not tell if they are working when the brake pedal is depressed. The brakes are activated electrically when there is a signal from the brake lights. If the signal input wire, usually thinner red wire, is not connected to the controller you will not have brakes or information displayed on the controller when the pedal is depressed.

[OTRA15]

Point well taken, so the same "skids on sand" test should also be repeated by applying the tow vehicle's actual brake pedal, when the trailer tires are on the sand. With the controller's gain set to Maximum, the main stopping force will be sent to the trailer IMO.

[GCinSC2]

I'd like to offer another long term tool for brake effectiveness testing, an infrared thermometer. Brakes create heat when their doing their job. No heat, not braking. How much heat depends on how much braking you have done. Look for uniformity rather than a specific value.

Also, assuming electric magnetic brakes? Are they adjusted? Self adjusting type? Double check.

Yes, this is a bit far off from the I hit a bump and got an error message.

[sgschwend]

There is another thread right now with the same issue.
I recommend you verify the vehicle frame/chassis ground. Checking the vehicle would likely not fail even with a poor frame/chassis ground.

You can measure the voltage provided to the trailer and compare it to the battery voltage, they should be very close, withing .1 or .2 volts.

To check you would need to have the running light on as a minimum load. You could also have someone step on the brakes and check the voltage at the trailer then too. If the chassis/frame ground is poor the voltage will drop when the load is applied.

Another method folks have tried is to put jumper cables between the trailer and vehicle frames. The reason why there is focus on the ground is because the vehicle negative side of the battery is delivered to the trailer through the frame, while the positive side of the battery is delivered via a copper wire.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by sgschwend

the vehicle negative side of the battery is delivered to the trailer through the frame, while the positive side of the battery is delivered via a copper wire.

Isn't the ground connection carried by one of the wires in the 7 pin connector? White wire if I recall.

Maybe that is not the case with older trailers?

Brian.

[Bill M.]

So this is a situation where it was working but now it does not work after going over a bump? And the problem is that the indicator on the Dodge brake controller does not show the trailer as being connected but the lights and brakes on the trailer are working?

Still sounds like the Dodge to me. But I have had a broken wire and intermittent connection in the trailer main cord and plug more than one time.

What about a Camping World service center. They have room for the truck and trailer and should know how to troubleshoot the trailer.

[HowieE]

Yes the lights and brakes will work while the controller is indicating a disconnect situation.

What most are overlooking here is the difference between a 12 volt feed to the lights and brakes and an electronic signal generated in the controller used to detect the disconnect. It is an interruption of the that signal that triggers the disconnect alarm. There is a huge difference between electrical, 12 volt auto circuits, and electronics, radio and computer stuff, and how they can be troubleshot. A dealer may have someone who can work on electrical problem in a vehicle but they will not have anyone that can troubleshot an electronic problem in the radio or computer in that vehicle.

The best you can do is construct a positive ground path from the TV to the trailer and see if that eliminates the problem. If it does than you have to decide if you want to replace the controller, with one without the alarm feature, or spend time looking for the point of failure in the factory ground path. It could be as simple as dirty contacts in the plug or poor contact at one of the chassis connections.

[n2916s]

Camping World's service reputation is relatively poor. Just so you know going in...

[Wingeezer]

I'm not sure if Ford and Dodge trucks are the same, but with our GMC, I have found that these integrated brake controllers are great while they work but a real pain when they don't - and not so easy to troubleshoot it seems.

One of the repeat problems that we have had is that everything would seem to be working ok and yet I would get chimes going off in the cab and messages showing a problem with the trailer brake system - whether a trailer was connected or not!

I had the truck back to the dealer numerous times before they could finally isolate the problem.


At one stage they "re-flashed" the brake controller module that is a part of the system. Apparently it monitors different parameters including the resistance of the brake circuit abd if it gets an out of spec reading, gives the fault message.

Apparently GM had found that they had the acceptable parameter lavels set too tightly and updated the software to try to eliminate false error messages.

For a while I thought that had fixed it - but it did not.

After several more visits back to dealer - costing me $$ each time - they finally replaced a solid state relay that is a component of the system. (With the GMC the control module and relay are both located on the truck frame near the driver's side rear wheel - not a very hospitable location for electronics I would have thought!)

It has been ok now for the last couple of years - fingers crossed. I could have bought two aftermarket systems for what this has cost me to repair!

In that respect, when I suggested to the GM dealer that I was at the stage where I wanted to disconnect the integrated system, they told me that in fact I could not install an aftermarket controller without still getting error messages on the dash. I'm not certain if that is correct as I think some other folks had gone this route.

But as others have said, these systems do work well when they work. The GM system - and I imagine the other manufacturers' tie right into the truck's hydraulic system to determine the voltage to apply to the trailer brakes.

When I was trying to get info on problems with the GMC integrated brake system I did several google searches and found truck forums revealing that problems were very widespread with many possible solutions given. I passed what I thought might be relevant to our GM dealer as they really seemed to be shooting in the dark (at my expense!) in their efforts to resolve this.

Of course Their initial accusation was that the problem was with our trailer - that did not prove to be so.

Based on the frustrations I have had with the trailer brake system, If we bought another tow vehicle, I would really prefer not to have the integrated brake system, but I suppose any truck with a tow package now likely comes so equipped.

I had somewhat similar problems with an overcomplicated computer control system for heated seats and hand grips on our Honda Goldwing. After a couple of years of frustration with erratic operation, I finally bought aftermarket heat controllers to connect to the seats and grips and disconnected the Honda system - worked perfectly ever since!

Brian.

[dznf0g]

Brian,
Was this on your 2008....and disc brakes on the AS? GM itbc was not compatible with e over h brakes until 2014 on 1500s and 2015 on HDs. You can always install an aftermarket controller, but you must cut the blue wire (brake output) from the itbc and replace it with the aftermarket controller blue wire. It is easiest to do this at the umbilical 7 pin at the bumper.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Brian,
Was this on your 2008....and disc brakes on the AS? GM itbc was not compatible with e over h brakes until 2014 on 1500s and 2015 on HDs. You can always install an aftermarket controller, but you must cut the blue wire (brake output) from the itbc and replace it with the aftermarket controller blue wire. It is easiest to do this at the umbilical 7 pin at the bumper.

Hi Rich,

Yes, 2008 GMC 2500HD - we still use it. Our AS is 2005 but does not have disc brakes, I think maybe they changed or maybe it was optional during that model year.

As well, the changed the axle size from something like 4200 lb to 5000 lb during the model year.

I bought ours used and the ID plate said GVW = 8400#, but when I looked under the trailer one day I found "5000" in yellow paint on both axles - couldn't find any serial number.

When I was at JC to have some work done I asked about it and whether they could confirm if indeed I had 5000# axles - they said I did and made up a new ID sticker!

They couldn't tell me if the trailer had come out of factory that way or if the OP had maybe upgraded the axles. In any event, nice to know!

I'm sure that I could install an aftermarket brake controller if I had to do so, and was almost at that stage, but since the GM dealer replaced the solid state trailer brake system relay on the truck a couple of years ago all has been well.

The dealer did tell me that if I changed the controller I would still constantly get error messages on the dash - wouldn't mean anything, just an annoyance.

I would have thought there would be a way to stop that by pulling fuses or fooling the system with a dummy load but have never pursued it - yet - and hopefully won't need to!

I did find conflicting info on other forums in this regard.

Brian.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

Hi Rich,

Yes, 2008 GMC 2500HD - we still use it. Our AS is 2005 but does not have disc brakes, I think maybe they changed or maybe it was optional during that model year.

As well, the changed the axle size from something like 4200 lb to 5000 lb during the model year.

I bought ours used and the ID plate said GVW = 8400#, but when I looked under the trailer one day I found "5000" in yellow paint on both axles - couldn't find any serial number.

When I was at JC to have some work done I asked about it and whether they could confirm if indeed I had 5000# axles - they said I did and made up a new ID sticker!

They couldn't tell me if the trailer had come out of factory that way or if the OP had maybe upgraded the axles. In any event, nice to know!

I'm sure that I could install an aftermarket brake controller if I had to do so, and was almost at that stage, but since the GM dealer replaced the solid state trailer brake system relay on the truck a couple of years ago all has been well.

The dealer did tell me that if I changed the controller I would still constantly get error messages on the dash - wouldn't mean anything, just an annoyance.

I would have thought there would be a way to stop that by pulling fuses or fooling the system with a dummy load but have never pursued it - yet - and hopefully won't need to!

I did find conflicting info on other forums in this regard.

Brian.

If you just add the aftermarket controller to the blunt cut underdash wires, yes, you would get errors. By cutting the blue wire from the ITBC, the system will always think there is no trailer attached regardless what you do. With this wire open, the "signal voltage" sent on that wire will never see anything but an infinite reading...or no trailer circuit. Did this with all my pre-2014/15 demos and installed a Tuson direclink in all of them. NEVER had any trailer messages on the dash. I believe we published a bulletin to this effect, except it said to cut the blue wire and attach your aftermarket blue wire up under the underhood electrical center. NOT EASY!!!!! better to use about 20' of your own wire and do the cut and splice back at the rear bumper.