Tread Separation on Michelin LTX225/75R16(E) M+S2

[BlackAces]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

Black Aces -> My trailer was NOT overweight. The upgraded axles were offered to me and installed by JC before the Smart weigh was done. I asked if I needed a new label on my ASAP and was told it was not necessary. If you were ordering a new trailer and at that time specified the heavier duty axles, then the label would show the higher weight limits.

The GAWR values must be correct on the vehicle's certification label. Only the vehicle manufacturer or a certified modifier has the authority to change those values. Adding axles with more load capacity than the OE axles provide just gives the owner some load capacity reserves above the manufacturer's GAWR settings.

Besides that. The weight slip says your trailer's GVWR is 8300#. The weights listed on the slip said you had 8750# on the axles. That's overweight.

[BlackAces]

Originally Posted by Action

So you have 8750 of trailer weight and 9000 pounds of load capacity for the axles?

Or a little less than a 3% margin in axle capacity.
Dividing that 9000 by 4 = 2250 #s, which means one corner is over loaded. Not sure about how that will impact axle life and I guessing that isn't a good thing.

I have a boat trailer that is like that scenario. Except it is the tires that have less than a 5% margin in load capacity. The boat trailer manufacturer sure went on the skinny side when putting the total running gear package together.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

Tires fitted to boat trailers are fitted in accordance with the same standards used for RV trailer tire fitments.

[Action]

Originally Posted by BlackAces

Tires fitted to boat trailers are fitted in accordance with the same standards used for RV trailer tire fitments.

I know, I got a tire education in 1998 after I purchase this in 1997. Along with keeping the tires inflated on every trip every time. The boat dealer that towed the trailer to my home had tire failure on delivery. I had two tire failures within 12 months of ownership. At that point I started my education process on this 7400 # load (when fully loaded with fluids) called boat and trailer. Fully inflated the tires had the capacity of just over the total towed load. The trailer has a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or may be more.

In my zeal to get on the water I did not always check the tire pressure. This how my education started, in the tires would loose a few pounds over a period of time. And like an RV that sits unused, my boating was seasonal. Because the margin was so small, the loss of a few pounds would diminish the load capacity and over time & usage I would have a failure. The first two failures were covered under warranty. The third I paid for and it was then I discovered more than I knew was possible about tire loads, vehicle loads and ratings. I still have the boat and trailer and have not had a tire failure since the failure in 1998. I believe I am on my fourth set of tires. Not that the tires have more capacity. I just am extremely diligent about tire inflation and never tow with any water aboard, ever! (Fresh or black)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[BlackAces]

RV trailer axles and even your tow vehicle axles are a common place where individual owners make errors with weight and balance of their vehicles.

Axle manufacturers will put certified stickers of some sort on each individual axle they build. Once installed on a vehicle that sticker value will only be valid if it matches the GAWR value a vehicle manufacturer has set for its use and displayed on the vehicle’s certification label. In other words; A 5200# axle fitted on a RV trailer and certified to be 5080# is a 5080# axle. Anything above that is a load capacity reserve value.

[Action]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

At the time it was weighed, all my holding tanks were filled to capacity - 55 gallons of fresh water plus 35 gallons wash water and 35 gallons of waste. That's 125 gallons at 10 lbs per gallon or 1,250 lbs, much more than usual. It was at the end of the Escapade in Tucson and I had not as yet dumped the tanks. The new axles are rated at 4,500 lbs each instead of 4,000 lbs each. The original GVWR was 8,700 lbs on the sticker, where 700 lbs relates to what the hitch carries. On that basis the new 4,500 lb axles brings the GVWR up to 9,700 lbs. All this was done at JC.

In my opinion your math has a flaw.

If the new axles are rated for 4500 each and you have 2, then 4500 X 2 = 9000. The GVWR can not be determined or stated based on the modifications made. As GVWR is not calculated that way by vehicle manufacturing standards. And I don't have the standards to do the calculation, I just know it is more complex than that. And the GVWR can not be stated as 9000 pounds as in curb weight, much less add another 700 because the hitch transfers weight to the TV. Curb weight is static and GVWR is a dynamic rating.

Based on scale slip, it appears the trailer was connected to the TV when the trailer weights were listed. If that is a yes, the hitch load was already transferred to the TV. I state that because the weights for the TV were given with trailer connected and disconnected. The street side rear weight is listed at 2350 pounds. 9000 divided by 4 = 2250. That may work for you, and you may tow far greater distances than I do with good results. I just would be uncomfortable with that arrangement. Just my opinion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[blkmagikca]

There were two weighings - one of just the TV and the other with the AS hitched to the TV. The tanks were all full. As well, I had more stuff in my AS than I carry now. What is really scary is that a number of weights done on other RV'S had them well in excess of the ratings, and many SOB owners had no clue how much they were over.

[xrvr]

Originally Posted by BlackAces

The GAWR values must be correct on the vehicle's certification label. Only the vehicle manufacturer or a certified modifier has the authority to change those values. Adding axles with more load capacity than the OE axles provide just gives the owner some load capacity reserves above the manufacturer's GAWR settings.

Besides that. The weight slip says your trailer's GVWR is 8300#. The weights listed on the slip said you had 8750# on the axles. That's overweight.

Isnt some of the weight on the axles taken up by tongue weight, which is then subtracted from the gross? This could be as much as 1000 pounds.

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by excellaf350

I bought BFG Rugged Terrains for my F350. They are 2 weeks shy of 5 years old but no cracking and only 20,000 miles on them. Had a belt slip in one while camping so I put the spare on. Didn't make it home and had a complete tire failure on another one. Blew out at 65 mph with trailer in tow.

I filed a claim with Michelin turns out they were recalled but not the 16" versions because they didn't sell that many. So the gambled on the failures. Michelin agreed to give me 4 new tires free if I dropped the claim.

]

I wish I had known that. I had the same BFGs on my F-350, 16s as well. One came apart at 4 years but less than 20K on it. The tire shop pro-rated it and still charged me $150 to replace it, and I later found out the replacement was four years old as well! That was last year, this year another one came apart and I bought another brand. Fortunately both times, although the failure was quite sudden, I noticed a vibration and was able to get off the road and stop before they came completely apart and had no vehicle damage. Maybe I should contact Michelin? It sounds like the bean counters gambled with our lives?

[BlackAces]

Originally Posted by avionstream

Isnt some of the weight on the axles taken up by tongue weight, which is then subtracted from the gross? This could be as much as 1000 pounds.

Yes, but the weight slip shown in the reference indicates the TV & trailer were weighed as a unit. So the weight on the axles according to the weight slip is what they are actually carrying. The GAWR values on the trailer's certification label are the axles limiting factor. To much axle weight overloads the GVWR, the major weight limiter.

[excellaf350]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

I wish I had known that. I had the same BFGs on my F-350, 16s as well. One came apart at 4 years but less than 20K on it. The tire shop pro-rated it and still charged me $150 to replace it, and I later found out the replacement was four years old as well! That was last year, this year another one came apart and I bought another brand. Fortunately both times, although the failure was quite sudden, I noticed a vibration and was able to get off the road and stop before they came completely apart and had no vehicle damage. Maybe I should contact Michelin? It sounds like the bean counters gambled with our lives?

Google the recall. There were a few different tires.

Ultimately what you said is exactly what has me furious. It's not that they had a defective tire... it that they decided to gamble with my life KNOWING they had bad tires out there. They didn't recall the 16's because they would have been on older, less valuable trucks and they didn't sell that many. So yes. The bean counters gambled on the payouts vs replacing every tire they sold.

[Cheesemaker]

Used trailer I purchased came with the Michelin tires quoted. I have about 25000 miles on tires. Run 68PSI on tires with monitors on each tire. Tires look good on tread wear. Previous owner did not change spare to 16 inch so I now have updated. Michelin tires were manufactured 2014 according to the DOT number. I was going to again look at Michelin next year but now will look at others per all the comments thus stated.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by excellaf350

Google the recall. There were a few different tires.

Ultimately what you said is exactly what has me furious. It's not that they had a defective tire... it that they decided to gamble with my life KNOWING they had bad tires out there. They didn't recall the 16's because they would have been on older, less valuable trucks and they didn't sell that many. So yes. The bean counters gambled on the payouts vs replacing every tire they sold.

You do realize that tires, even with the same name are not always made of the same materials. Even if they were designed to be made with similar or even the same material, components are made in batches which are traced through the mfg process.
While I do not know what the exact problem was in the tires that were recalled by Michelin, I am pretty confident that the manufacturing error was identified and all suspect tires were included in the recall plus many tires that probably did not have the identified defect.

I can attest to the fact that the recall I initiated in 2001 involved only enough off-spec rubber to have been built into 149 tires and even though we had already captured in the warehouse 85 of that group, it was decided to recall some 6,000 tires just in case a tire had been cured a week earlier or a week later than the batch that included the incorrect compound. So tires with three weeks of production serial were recalled even though the mistake was made in tires built on a Tuesday.

[excellaf350]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

You do realize that tires, even with the same name are not always made of the same materials. Even if they were designed to be made with similar or even the same material, components are made in batches which are traced through the mfg process.
While I do not know what the exact problem was in the tires that were recalled by Michelin, I am pretty confident that the manufacturing error was identified and all suspect tires were included in the recall plus many tires that probably did not have the identified defect.

I can attest to the fact that the recall I initiated in 2001 involved only enough off-spec rubber to have been built into 149 tires and even though we had already captured in the warehouse 85 of that group, it was decided to recall some 6,000 tires just in case a tire had been cured a week earlier or a week later than the batch that included the incorrect compound. So tires with three weeks of production serial were recalled even though the mistake was made in tires built on a Tuesday.

I do realize that my statement isn't true for ALL situations.

But in a nutshell, they came out with a new tire desgin. They were failing left and right with the same failures. They recalled the most popular sizes and completely discontinued manufacturing the tire because of it. My tire (make that 2 of 4) suffered the same failure even though it wasn't technically part of the recall. Coincidence? Maybe, but I tend to be the type who thinks if there's smoke there's probably fire. But yes that is 100% just my opinion. You know what they say about that...

I took Michelin up on their offer and put 4 brand new Defender LTX tires on the trailer. Bought 2 more cause it's a 34'. And bought 2 more coopers for the truck. It was the most cost effective route. I got 10 new tires only paid for 6.

[excellaf350]

Originally Posted by Cheesemaker

Used trailer I purchased came with the Michelin tires quoted. I have about 25000 miles on tires. Run 68PSI on tires with monitors on each tire. Tires look good on tread wear. Previous owner did not change spare to 16 inch so I now have updated. Michelin tires were manufactured 2014 according to the DOT number. I was going to again look at Michelin next year but now will look at others per all the comments thus stated.

That's all I'm saying. People on this board and in the airstream world in general are religious with brand allegiance of Michelin. I'm not saying they are bad tires. They've had their share of problems sure. But there are plenty of other quality brands out there and made in the USA as well. When tires shopping just be open minded to brand selections.

I'm really happy with the Cooper tires on my truck now. But they are brand new. Hopefully they hold up and treat me well.

[blkmagikca]

Unfortunately, there is a continuation to this saga. I was at JC

[blkmagikca]

On Monday and Tuesday (Nov 20 & 21) and had my running gear all checked out. I left on Wednesday to head south. On Friday (Nov 24) I had another tread separation on a Michelin from the same date & lot number. This was on I-40 just after entering NM. I had to get a repair guy with a hammer to bend back some of the metal that protruded into the wheel well and blocked mounting the spare. The damage was the curb side rear of the AS.

Today (Nov 25) another Michelin LTX M+S2 from the same date code and batch had a tread separation, this time the left rear. So of the 4 Michelins on the road 3 have failed. All 3 were properly inflated. Clearly Michelin did have a problem with that batch and covered it up. I am currently roadside on I-10 waiting delivery of 4 new Cooper tires. I'll be in Tucson next week at Oasis to get the repairs started. My insurers are providing me with help.

More later.

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

On Monday and Tuesday (Nov 20 & 21) and had my running gear all checked out. I left on Wednesday to head south. On Friday (Nov 24) I had another tread separation on a Michelin from the same date & lot number. This was on I-40 just after entering NM. I had to get a repair guy with a hammer to bend back some of the metal that protruded into the wheel well and blocked mounting the spare. The damage was the curb side rear of the AS.

Today (Nov 25) another Michelin LTX M+S2 from the same date code and batch had a tread separation, this time the left rear. So of the 4 Michelins on the road 3 have failed. All 3 were properly inflated. Clearly Michelin did have a problem with that batch and covered it up. I am currently roadside on I-10 waiting delivery of 4 new Cooper tires. I'll be in Tucson next week at Oasis to get the repairs started. My insurers are providing me with help.

More later.

.......I have 20,000 miles on our Michelin 225/75/16 LT..E...no problem.....

[blkmagikca]

Michelin has recalled tires in the past where they had a bad lot. The tires that failed in my case were date code 0213 batch lot B3JH 009X. At the time of the initial failure, I was told by Michelin that mine were not under a recall. As you may know, Michelin has discontinued the M+S2 line and replaced it with the Defender line saying that the Defenders use a different rubber compound. I would assume that the Michelin Ribs are good. I have Defenders on my TV.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

On Monday and Tuesday (Nov 20 & 21) and had my running gear all checked out. I left on Wednesday to head south. On Friday (Nov 24) I had another tread separation on a Michelin from the same date & lot number. This was on I-40 just after entering NM. I had to get a repair guy with a hammer to bend back some of the metal that protruded into the wheel well and blocked mounting the spare. The damage was the curb side rear of the AS.

Today (Nov 25) another Michelin LTX M+S2 from the same date code and batch had a tread separation, this time the left rear. So of the 4 Michelins on the road 3 have failed. All 3 were properly inflated. Clearly Michelin did have a problem with that batch and covered it up. I am currently roadside on I-10 waiting delivery of 4 new Cooper tires. I'll be in Tucson next week at Oasis to get the repairs started. My insurers are providing me with help.

More later.

Sorry to read about your problems.

Each failure deserves a separate complaint filed with NHTSA.

Also Am I correct that your LTX M+S2 is not the LT tire but is a Passenger tire or possibly an XL passenger tire?
Makes a difference onactual load capacity.
If it is the LT tire and is LR-E have you been running 80 psi cold infl?

You might want to read the last dozen posts on THIS thread to learn more about Michelin LTX tires.

[blkmagikca]

As far as I know, I purchased 5 tires on 16" rims at JC. They were all LTX tires load range E, and we're inflated to 80 psi.