Tires - How old is too old?

[GM Airstream]

Try these two quotes:

"...... He went on to say that new tires have been found to fail almost as frequently as tires made during the 90's when they started using different material in the sidewalls than nlyon or glass... "

I am sorry it should be ' brand new tires failure rates are found to fail almost as frequently as ones in service on the road today... (which implied.. means a lot less than one manufactured before the 90's

Radial tires made since the 90's have different materials..... (as such are not prone to failure in service as they were before the 90's.... Is what I ment to say ... and indeed most car tires changed over to radial ply instead of bias.

"....... So where are the real facts... according to him... blowouts (SIDEWALL FAILURE have been reduced by better than 80% from SINCE" the 90' on .. and I guess he should know as they check their products all the time in a conten'os feedback..."

I hope that helps to clarifiy what was said... indeed the new belted radial ply tires are a improvement over the old bias ply. as they are much more flexable and softer riding. But, does that put more stress on the sidewall... according to him the new belted tires are designed to take it...

One point further... we did talk a little about trailer useage vs auto...... tires and the stress that is put on them by the vheicles physical operation.

Indeed a trailer has a much higher center of gravity...than a car does.. but I found it interesting that he said they found that side wall ... loading on a car at high speed put more stress on the sidewall than a trailer does from their testing... (when I asked how this was so..

he said that the car (TV) puts not only sidewall stress from weight... but also at speed going around a corner.... it has to also deal with the.... torque applied from the rim to the tread during acceleration, operation and braking.

The only time two of these stresses are present... when applied to RV trailers.... are only seen during sway (going around curves) and braking when the same tires are used on a travel trailer. (I guess you could say reverse torqu'n as you stop?)

Otherwise... only one stress on the sidewall of the tire ....from weight... is going on... unlike the TV... their is little or no torque applied to the tire sidewall except from braking... when traveling streight .. on the road....

His thoughts on the subject of trailer tire failure again was LOAD, SPEED and tire pressure and UV effects from inactivity.

If the tire is kept in it load carrying range and not over/under pressured... kept at the speed rating for the load...so that its sidewall flexing is contained and used occasionally so that the elements are not consentrat'ed on one area (UV-SUNLIGHT) one could expect much better service out of the new radial ply tires than the old one before the 90's-bias ply type.

again his thoughts on RV trailer tire failure is not something that just happens... it has indicators before it goes critical. (blowout) High speed and over weight are the most common killers today... of which I can assume that age also plays a part if their is a cycle of overheating and cooling...

So is it the tires fault.. or the nut behind the wheel that hasn't a clue about how much weight he has on the ball... and blindly takes off down the road... not stopping to check temps and conditions of the trailer tires ? ... unlike the TV which he is riding in... if it has a tire that is failing.. he senses that... huh

but... is he conserned before the event.. or only after... blame'n the tire for the damage it caused...

How many times I have been passed by middle aged couples doing 75-80 down the road towing a RV behind... and is he conserned about tires.. nope.. only get their itis... bet he doesn't know that the more load on a tire he is carrying... the slower the speed rating of the tire... then again ya live and learn.. huh.. keeps the repair and tire company in business selling tires too... so we hear from the skeptics and old wives tales...

Hope this helps...sorry I was posting late at night before... and you know how things can get tied togeather at our age... grin...

[CapriRacer]

GM Airstream,

Thanks for the clarification.

There are a couple of other things that are different about trailer tires.

Unlike car and pickup trucks, travel trailers are fully loaded pretty much all the time. That means the even a small amount of ah .... let's call it "bad judgement", can result in a tire failure. That's why the speed limitation of ST tires and the underestimation of the actual loading is so important. So I tend to add trailer manufacturers to the mix of where the fault lies.

- AND -

It is not hard for me to image that a trailer tire manufacturer - especially one where there is little feedback on their products performance - would miss that what worked in the 1990's wasn't good enough in the 2000's - that is post Ford/Firestone. So I am not leaving them out of the mix either.

I find it interesting that the guy you talked to refers to the 1990's as the changeover time frame. Passenger cars completed the changeover to radial in the mid 1970's. Over the Road Truck tires took a bit longer, but by the end of the 1980's that was more or less a done deal as well. To me that says he wasn't in the mainstream - likely a specialty manufacturer. Someone in that position might have a bit of a skewed viewpoint.

[mbutterfield]

Originally Posted by SSquared

After years of too much time spent reading forums, my thought are

1) ST tires and tandem axles: 3 years
2) ST tires and single axles: 4-6 years depending on how much spare capacity there is
3) LT or P tires and tandem axles: 5 years

I am curious. Why 3 years for tandem axle, and 4-6 years for single axle?

[Bill M.]

I am going to guess he thinks/knows that the tandom axles load the tires more severely than single axles because of shear when turning and because of uneven distribution between the 4 or 6 tires when the weight that is outboard of the axles shifts or the hitching angle shifts. And the potential for misalignment. Tandom axle trailers are tough on tires.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by GM Airstream

The sidwall develops a little indentation... and the face of the tire is where the rubber meets the road... and forms a flat spot... that behaves like a cold tire first starting out.. thup thump thump.. kinda thing... and makes the tire out of balance...

Ok so how many of you all change your TV or pax tires every 3-5 years... bet some of ya are working on 6-8 before you wear them out... sidewall be dam'ed. yet why do you change the trailer tires out on a time line...

Irailer tires are exposed to so many different uses... some set .. some go on the road.. etc... some get exposed to sun in one setting for months at a time...

Yet everone says to change 'em out.. fearing blowouts... yet when talking to engineering at seveal of the tire manufactures.. they laugh and say.. used to be.. but today again with kevlar and steel in the sidewalls and faces... they are saying... try not to waist your money...( Next time you talk to an "Engineer" not sales or marketing person as them about Interply Shear. If they say "What?" they are not tire design engineers. I always found that it was extremely unusual for outside calls to ever get to an actual design engineer.)

I wonder how many ACTUALLY have had the blow out ( By Blowout are you refering to run low sidewall flex failure? or are you using the term as some generic failure?) from aged tires and not some other problem... too many hear stories from a friend of a friend of a friend who said they knew someone... whos did.. but in actual they have never had .. nor would they if they use the trailer on a simi monthly baiss.. even if its just a trip around the block so they get some rotation.... ye I know. the old saying... use it or lose it... kinda thing..

But, in reality... today do you need to change them on a time line... when your using them normally... well the gent at mitch said.. NO... todays tires are so much better and advanced... ( I generally agree that it isn't the number of days on a claendar but the days & miles used and minutes above 60 mph or with less than the tire sidewall pressure as the CIP)

He went on to say more tires are damaged by over inflation and weight than he thinks would be from age... and need to replace... of curse he also said.. keeps us in business.. but he along with I am wondering who started the time line replacement on tires today... does anyone really know ? or do most just follow the sheep... and think they are safer chang'n than sticking with the current ones... (Again have to wonder if the person you talked to was actually an engineer. Not sure about the claim of overinflation as an extra 5 to 15 psi in LT or St tires is not going to cause a problem. Now if he waqs claiming that a lot of folks are running +50 psi cold then maybe)

He went on to say that new tires have been found to fail almost as frequently (which is it new tires have kevlar and steel in the sidewall and are better or new tires fail jsut as often?) as tires made during the 90's when they started using different material in the sidewalls than nlyon or glass.( I know of no tire that ever used fiberglass in the sidewall. Who was this person? We switched from Nylon body in LT tires when we went to radial in early 70's)..

He went on to say that the rubber will harden within the first year the tire is exposed to the elements... after that.. it tapers down.( based on what theory of chemical reaction rate?)

Oh well.. ya pays your money and takes your choice... almost like what were finding out about batteries... just because you pay more doesn't mean its better.....

So where are the real facts... according to him... blowouts have been reduced by better than 80% from the 90' on .. and I guess he should know as they check their products all the time in a conten'os feedback...

He also said that you want to check the wheel bearings... as a bearing that is dragging or not working right can lead to tires getting excess hot and causing problems... so how often do you service clean and repack the wheel bearings... His suggestion is at least once a season before you hit the road... and after to insure that things are dependable... so how many do that ? Or is it the tires fault?

I suggest you find yourself a person who actually holdes an Engineering degree, designed tires for a major car company and holds a tire paten or two and not think that because someone sold tires for a few years that makes then an actual engineer.
Yes there are some commercial grade LT tires with steel sidewall like Bridgestone R250 and similar from Michelin & Goodyear.
I don't think there areany more than one or two steel body ST type tires if that and your "tire engineer" should know that just having steel body ply does not prevent Run Low Flex failures as I show in my March 25, 2011 RV tire blog post.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by alreardon

I just had a blow-out where tire shredded.

I have learned an important lesson: the tread doesn't matter.

it is the side wall of the tires that sit in the sun.

I will be replacing tires on my 20' Airstream every 18 months, from now on!

"blow-out" means it failed. If it was the sidewall it may simply be a run low flex failure. Do you have clear pictures? If so you can post or PM me or CapriRacer and we can give you a real tire engineer's opinion.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by GM Airstream

Try these two quotes:

"...... He went on to say that new tires have been found to fail almost as frequently as tires made during the 90's when they started using different material in the sidewalls than nlyon or glass... "

I am sorry it should be ' brand new tires failure rates are found to fail almost as frequently as ones in service on the road today... (which implied.. means a lot less than one manufactured before the 90's

Radial tires made since the 90's have different materials..... (as such are not prone to failure in service as they were before the 90's.... Is what I ment to say ... and indeed most car tires changed over to radial ply instead of bias.

"....... So where are the real facts... according to him... blowouts (SIDEWALL FAILURE have been reduced by better than 80% from SINCE" the 90' on .. and I guess he should know as they check their products all the time in a conten'os feedback..."

I hope that helps to clarifiy what was said... indeed the new belted radial ply tires are a improvement over the old bias ply. as they are much more flexable and softer riding. But, does that put more stress on the sidewall... according to him the new belted tires are designed to take it...

One point further... we did talk a little about trailer useage vs auto...... tires and the stress that is put on them by the vheicles physical operation.

Indeed a trailer has a much higher center of gravity...than a car does.. but I found it interesting that he said they found that side wall ... loading on a car at high speed put more stress on the sidewall than a trailer does from their testing... (when I asked how this was so..

he said that the car (TV) puts not only sidewall stress from weight... but also at speed going around a corner.... it has to also deal with the.... torque applied from the rim to the tread during acceleration, operation and braking.

The only time two of these stresses are present... when applied to RV trailers.... are only seen during sway (going around curves) and braking when the same tires are used on a travel trailer. (I guess you could say reverse torqu'n as you stop?)

Otherwise... only one stress on the sidewall of the tire ....from weight... is going on... unlike the TV... their is little or no torque applied to the tire sidewall except from braking... when traveling streight .. on the road....

His thoughts on the subject of trailer tire failure again was LOAD, SPEED and tire pressure and UV effects from inactivity.

If the tire is kept in it load carrying range and not over/under pressured... kept at the speed rating for the load...so that its sidewall flexing is contained and used occasionally so that the elements are not consentrat'ed on one area (UV-SUNLIGHT) one could expect much better service out of the new radial ply tires than the old one before the 90's-bias ply type.

again his thoughts on RV trailer tire failure is not something that just happens... it has indicators before it goes critical. (blowout) High speed and over weight are the most common killers today... of which I can assume that age also plays a part if their is a cycle of overheating and cooling...

So is it the tires fault.. or the nut behind the wheel that hasn't a clue about how much weight he has on the ball... and blindly takes off down the road... not stopping to check temps and conditions of the trailer tires ? ... unlike the TV which he is riding in... if it has a tire that is failing.. he senses that... huh

but... is he conserned before the event.. or only after... blame'n the tire for the damage it caused...

How many times I have been passed by middle aged couples doing 75-80 down the road towing a RV behind... and is he conserned about tires.. nope.. only get their itis... bet he doesn't know that the more load on a tire he is carrying... the slower the speed rating of the tire... then again ya live and learn.. huh.. keeps the repair and tire company in business selling tires too... so we hear from the skeptics and old wives tales...

Hope this helps...sorry I was posting late at night before... and you know how things can get tied togeather at our age... grin...

Thanks for more info. Capri and I are playing hopscotch with answers. BUT
I see a lot of talk about sidewalls but that isn't the area of concern for radial tire failures. Basically if you keep the needed air in a radial tire the sidewall will not fail for a long long time. It's the steel belts in a radial tire that is of concern. When steel belts detach (tread separation or belt separation to the lay person) it is because of a combination of loss of rubber strength at the belt edges due to heat and age and the higher strain seen in multi-axle trailer usage. Technical term is "Interply Shear" GOOGLE it to learn more.

I have posts with video on how to better inspect radial tires for impending separations under "How to Inspect tires". I even include pictures of an autopsy I conducted on a tire that "failed" the "free spin test" but still looked OK from an external visual point.
Unless you have acess to X-Ray or Holographic tire inspection equipment or maybe decades of experience doing end of life tire inspections, I doubt that users will notice the signs of impending failure.

Given that few are able or willing to do the level of inspection needed to discover a possible failure before it happens the best we can do is to offer general guidelines.
The published suggestions of 5 years for trailer and 10 year max for motorhome are reasonable. Are they 100% No of course not and they may be too conservative for the RV iser who runs with a 25% margin on actyal load vs tire load capacity and runs 60 mph and only travel North of Mason Dixon line.
But those suggestions are not conservative enough if you do all your travel in the southern tier, Run 70 - 80 mph and have decided to only check your air pressure once every coupl of months and then set the pressure lower than recommended and to plan on the pressure build due to running to get you to the pressure tire companies say.

As the saying goes, You can lead a horse to water but you cn't make them drink. Capri and I can only offer you the benefit of our 80 odd years of tire knowledge. It's your choice if you want to follow it or listen to the guy that was selling refrigerators last year.

Best of luck

[GM Airstream]

Tireman9... I did talk to the engineer.. he was at Mitchlin.. and we were not talking about ST tires.. but rather radial car tires used today on A/S. He was quick to point out that Mitchlon. et all doesn't make a RV trailer tire...per se... So we spoke of LT tires used on the A/S etc...

Thanks for your insite... it would be nice if you could take the time to posted a good article on how to inspect both the LT and ST tires... with examples...
Thus saving someone's rig from the dreaded tire failure... based on facts.. and not someones idea of a good time.. and promote fear so that they can have a sale...

With all your experance in the industry... I am sure that it would be very informative and helpful...

Thanks again...

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by GM Airstream

Tireman9... I did talk to the engineer.. he was at Mitchlin.. and we were not talking about ST tires.. but rather radial car tires used today on A/S. He was quick to point out that Mitchlon. et all doesn't make a RV trailer tire...per se... So we spoke of LT tires used on the A/S etc...

Thanks for your insite... it would be nice if you could take the time to posted a good article on how to inspect both the LT and ST tires... with examples...
Thus saving someone's rig from the dreaded tire failure... based on facts.. and not someones idea of a good time.. and promote fear so that they can have a sale...

With all your experance in the industry... I am sure that it would be very informative and helpful...

Thanks again...

GM

I have over 300 posts on my RV Tire blog. I monitor a number of RV forums Most allow me to post links to the articles I have already written on my blog but sorry to say that because the company I write for, placed advertisements on the blog, I am not allowed to post direct links. Really do not have the time to write extensiveposts with pictures etc that simply duplicate the work I already ahve done.
Wish I could help but I am already too busy giving seminars at rallys ( two in Elkhart ar RVillage this week) and consulting with industry companies.
You can check my profile, find the link to my blog and then use the index to find the posts and video on tire inspection.

[GM Airstream]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

GM

I have over 300 posts on my RV Tire blog. I monitor a number of RV forums Most allow me to post links to the articles I have already written on my blog but sorry to say that because the company I write for, placed advertisements on the blog, I am not allowed to post direct links. Really do not have the time to write extensiveposts with pictures etc that simply duplicate the work I already ahve done.
Wish I could help but I am already too busy giving seminars at rallys ( two in Elkhart ar RVillage this week) and consulting with industry companies.
You can check my profile, find the link to my blog and then use the index to find the posts and video on tire inspection.

With todays computers.. I would think you could cut and paste a article for the blue beret or others... that would not take too much more time.. if your already putting a siminar together for a presentation.

Another option would be to post a link to your videos.

This then would be of great help to all the rest of us... inquiring minds that are trying to get a grip on what is best for the wheels to run with, so to speak.
thanks

[GM Airstream]

I just went to the web and looked up your 'How to Inspect tires'...

Found a bunch of them on Y tube ... one from Mitch... which one is yours ? their are about 15 of them on the site... can you give us a link ?

thanks

[Action]

No, a commercial user can not post a link to a web site or any site that contains advertisement on this forum. While a link to this specific blog would be awesome in my opinion. It would open the door for every user that want to pitch a product to post links. Which would significantly change Air Forums into a place with much commercial activity. This is supposed to be a place to share ideas, thoughts and experiences not a place where some one can pitch a product or service that is for sale.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[GCinSC2]

YouTube is a strong resource, I frequently search it if it’s a topic I’m not familiar with.

But YouTube is also full of wannabe experts just putting stuff up for ad revenue.

I literally rule out any presentation on topics related to safety, procedures or hazardous situations if I am not comfortable with the presenters credentials, experience, professionalism or the company they represent.

I consider myself sensitive to the creds of the presenter because in my 38 year professional career I’m also a YouTube presenter since 2009 with over 7.6M views on about 45 videos strictly on a single technical topic.

Both tireman9 and capriracer have participated in many discussions about tires and shared appropriate creds and experiences from their professional tire industry careers. I appreciate their experience , observations and participation.

Gary

[ITSNO60]

Google is your friend......The first time I saw one of Roger's posts I simply Googled "RV Tire Safety" and whuddya know up came his blog! I bookmarked it and have been working my way through it, learning as I go. Once you see it you will realize there are hundreds of articles all nicely contained, organized and linked in the blog. Each article also contains the pertinent links to videos etc. Once you see the blog it will become obvious why he would not want to cut and paste something here and there when it is so easy for anyone to find it all in one place.

The very first night I learned how to do the spin test