thoughts advice on these tires... ? thx

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by nickclifford

thanks, gotta be honest, I'm kinda confused, so many opinions but regardless of tire manufacturer, sounds like most are suggesting trailer tires deteriorate regardless of storage, exposure or time used. I'll get some new ones but not enough time now really to think about new wheels / tires v keep original wheels and stick with trailer tires. No expert on tires, but car tires seem to last for as long as the tread is left ? could be a decade or so ..

which tires would be considered "best bang for the buck" bearing in mind this will be a low mileage trailer for now ... why buy high milage expensive tires if trailer only being pulled less than 2k per yr..? may as well buy good but inexpensive and change them every 5-6 yrs or so...? head spinning ! Gonna do some bedtime reading on tires like i got nothing better to do ! really appreciate everyones input

Hey Nick,

If you cannot make it, & your rez is at PCV for the vintage rally, then contact Mike Keenan & see if you can pass it off to somebody on the wait list & get them to pay you the fee (we got in the 1st time only about a week or 2 before, off the wait list in 2013). Otherwise, I do know folks who "gave" their rez to somebody else to use over the years when we've been going (whatever their deal was between them was private ;-).

As that TL tire article which you linked above states, the tires used on trailers can age out quicker mainly because they aren't run as much as a daily driver car, so the rubber compounds (emulsifiers?) don't get worked around in the rubber to keep them as fresh & pliable. However, the ST tire compounds are made with that more limited & intermittent use in mind, so they are compounded to last longer on a trailer, than are the car/LT tires' compounds.

This aging will happen on any tires used on a trailer - whether ST, LT, P, Bias, etc. - & all will tend to age faster due to the greater % of time sitting.

You're incorrect in assuming that car tires last as long as tread life, since it's a function of how much used/driven to keep the rubber fresh, quality of the tires & rubber compounds, so they too will age-out/crack early (see below).

Also, I would never suggest that one use the cheaper made tires of any type because of shorter expected life on a trailer, since a lesser quality tire may be more prone to failures (Goodyear Marathons GYM have run into this problem recently, as the topics here show - IIRC there is a poll too) - nor on any vehicle.

With a relatively expensive trailer like AS etc., you're gambling on lesser quality manufacturing & materials in cheap tires not blowing out & causing far more expensive damage to repair on your AS, than what you'll save on a cheap tire. I say just think of it as "insurance" & get a good set of tires on there!

I've also had experience with some "more economical" mid-price-range tires (not even the really cheapos) on our cars aging out with serious sidewall cracking in just 2-3 years on our 85 BMW 325e E30 & the 88 VW Westy van after just 2-3 years of our daily driving use (all were between 6-12 months old by date code when mounted) - which is only about +/-3000 mi/yr - & they were all at 80+% tread! So I had to replace 2 sets of 5 tires in less than 1/3-1/2 of their expected 8-10 year life (aside from tread wear).

So the cheaper lesser quality tires can also age out & start cracking before the 5 years, & if you're buying 2 sets of cheapos in 5 years, then you're not saving any money.

I went with the Maxxis UE168(N) on the Westy & Nexus on the BMW, based on tire reviews & Consumer Reports, & they've already lasted longer than the cheapos, with zero signs of cracking at all so far!

For you - I'd still recco the Maxxis M8008 ST tires, & get some of those vinyl tire covers from Camping World/etc. & cover them when parked, & they'll probably last 5+ years. With limited use & shorter trips, you can probably get by for 6-7 maybe 8 years, but you'll need to really inspect them closely at 5> years.

We only do 5 vintage trips with ours a year, so about the same +/- 2-3000 miles/yr as yours, & ours have lasted with zero cracking so far, & come July I'll be at 5 years one our Maxxis M8008s with 90% tread, & I keep ours covered.

As for your comment about changing out wheels - I don't see any need to change wheels, unless you have an older vintage trailer with the "split rims," which are very dangerous to change tires on - & those should be changed (Vintage Trailer Supply & other sources carry replacements). I am not in the crowd of upsizing wheels to use LT tires for the very reasons stated in the TL article which you linked, as are many of the doomsday crew on here - so I don't suggest changing wheels for that reason.

Good Luck & Possibly we'll see you in Pismo next week!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Jacob D]

Originally Posted by nickclifford

it would interesting to see a thread dedicated to any incidents and see how in reality tires fail. Why, when, age, road conditions, speed, storage conditions etc etc.
We live in a highly litigious society with the most bizarre warning labels on everything "don't hold this iron to your face, it could result in a serious burn" type silliness. My curious mind wonders how much of a safety overkill "sell by" factor is built into the 6yr swap out recommendation.

In all my 35+ yrs of driving, never ever had a blow out or even a flat ... but you see someone every week on the roadside, so it happens! Better to be safe than sorry ...

I presume the 6 yr limit is based on averages of conditions, mileage, road hazards etc. My first set of Canadian made Marathons ran 13 years before any unusual wear or deterioration began to show and that only after a near crash that pounded the right front trailer tire pretty hard. I cover the tires when stored, spray them once a month with Armor All Tire Foam and keep them pumped up to the recommended operating pressure when stored. They are seldom on unpaved surfaces and then only for a week or two at the most.
I tow at moderate speeds (mostly 55 to 60 mph, occasionally 65 on a downhill) and make frequent rest stops.

We have never experienced a blow out on our trailer but in towing the same trailer for over 30 years have had a flat or two from punctures. I switched to ST tires many years ago from bias ply truck tires with inner tubes which Airstream originally supplied with the trailer new. The GoodYear ST's provide a much better ride.

[PharmGeek]

Would be interesting if we knew more definitively how various storage conditions, usage, products used (303 protectant etc) would affect the "usable lifespan" of the tires.

I am unaware of such specific knowledge.

From what I have gleaned from the inter-webs, it seems that even if you managed to do an excellent job of avoiding UV damage, kept them very clean, even stored them inside mostly, after "some amount of time" they are in need of replacement.

It seems just weird that, for example, if you kept the trailer indoors mostly and only traveled for short weekend and a couple 1 week trips, totally 10-15 trips per year, and your trailer most days sat indoors lets say, that the tire lifespan would not be "significantly longer" than one stored out in the open contending with sun, rain, dirt...

I ponder this question myself now, because after I put up my shelter, going forward, my tires will see very little exposure statistically, and so I have wondered how that would affect future decisions on assessing when tires would need to be replaced.

I am assuming at 6-7 years, even if they look pretty good still, ill change them out.

Would be cool if at say 7 years, you cound send like a sample somewhere and them have some fancy analysis to give an assessment? That just is me being a nerd perhaps...

[Lumatic]

Originally Posted by Jacob D

I presume the 6 yr limit is based on averages of conditions, mileage, road hazards etc. My first set of Canadian made Marathons ran 13 years before any unusual wear or deterioration began to show .

The point is that internal tire deterioration does not show.

[m.hony]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

Would be interesting if we knew more definitively how various storage conditions, usage, products used (303 protectant etc) would affect the "usable lifespan" of the tires.

I am unaware of such specific knowledge.

From what I have gleaned from the inter-webs, it seems that even if you managed to do an excellent job of avoiding UV damage, kept them very clean, even stored them inside mostly, after "some amount of time" they are in need of replacement.

It seems just weird that, for example, if you kept the trailer indoors mostly and only traveled for short weekend and a couple 1 week trips, totally 10-15 trips per year, and your trailer most days sat indoors lets say, that the tire lifespan would not be "significantly longer" than one stored out in the open contending with sun, rain, dirt...

I ponder this question myself now, because after I put up my shelter, going forward, my tires will see very little exposure statistically, and so I have wondered how that would affect future decisions on assessing when tires would need to be replaced.

I am assuming at 6-7 years, even if they look pretty good still, ill change them out.

Would be cool if at say 7 years, you cound send like a sample somewhere and them have some fancy analysis to give an assessment? That just is me being a nerd perhaps...

A tire biopsy? Send the sample to Marsha Lucas Pathology in Russellville, AL?

[PharmGeek]

Originally Posted by m.hony

A tire biopsy? Send the sample to Marsha Lucas Pathology in Russellville, AL?

Exactly!

Joking aside, I guess as others have said, the appearance or health of the outside of the tire is entirely or mostly independent of the inside....so perhaps the expiration date of the tire even if kept out of the sun, is or should be considered a fairly fixed number.

Then again, why to tissue pathology post mordem, when you could to like a tire-endoscopy....not sure what to call that, but take a look inside and see what the prognosis is?

[m.hony]

I've been sticking my with 7 years or less depending on the amount of cracking/dry rot on the sidewalls.
The tires on the Pathfinder are 5 years old. 1 is slightly cracked/dry rotting close to the rim bead. The car only takes me a couple of miles each day to work at slow speed, so I'm in no hurry to get tires. The tread wear is still at 5/32-6/32.
The tires on the Tundra are 6 years old according to the DOT date. I bought them in 2014 knowing they were already 3 years old by a he DOT date code. The original tires on my he Tundra were replaced at 7 years. The current 6 year old tires have slight cracking/dry rot near the rim bead. I trust the dealer to tell me when to stop rotating front to back and get new tires. "You ain't got nothin' to rotate. You need new tires." That's what got me new tires- that and the fact we were headed to Jackson Center and I couldn't stomach the thought of a 12 hour trip with rotten old tires.
So...
Later this year or early next year I'm getting new tires on the Tundra.
The LT tires on the Airstream are 2 years old and show no signs of wear or age, but will get replaced in 5 years anyway.
So...
7 years max, maybe sooner.
I'll never get to wear tires out.
My tires will age out with 5/32 tread left...

[Bill M.]

The sides and well wells of vintage trailers are expensive. Tires are cheap. One of the last tire failures saw on an Airstream (not mine, fortunately) took out the black tank valve also. What a mess. I am 75 and prefer to change tires at a tire dealer or in my driveway rather than on the road. I change mine at 4 full years regardless. We do use the trailer a lot.

To the original poster: at the very least get a new set of the Goodyear Endurance load range D tires to use while you study and think about it for a few years to get it just right. About $500 that will be well spent.

[Gneiss Guy]

Where did the mantra "Tires rot from the inside." come from? It may be true, but it is counter-intuitive. Most of the factors that affect the life of a tire (UV light, ozone, etc.) are external to the tire. It is my understanding that certain chemicals that counter these factors are compounded with the rubber and that flexing the tires keeps those compounds moving toward the outside, where they are effective. That would account for the fact that we get greater longevity of tow vehicle tires, as our trailers are inactive for most of their "lives". It would follow that keeping the trailer indoors, away from UV and tire-ageing air pollutants could prolong the effective use of the tires.

[PharmGeek]

Originally Posted by Gneiss Guy

Where did the mantra "Tires rot from the inside." come from? It may be true, but it is counter-intuitive. Most of the factors that affect the life of a tire (UV light, ozone, etc.) are external to the tire. It is my understanding that certain chemicals that counter these factors are compounded with the rubber and that flexing the tires keeps those compounds moving toward the outside, where they are effective. That would account for the fact that we get greater longevity of tow vehicle tires, as our trailers are inactive for most of their "lives". It would follow that keeping the trailer indoors, away from UV and tire-ageing air pollutants could prolong the effective use of the tires.

My understanding is that there seems to be an understanding or a known orthodoxy that despite external appearances, the inside could rot out and that tires that appear all fine and dandy on the outside, after that long are not on the inside?

I believe the only "proof of concept" is common anecdotal experience:

People have owned tires that appear fine that are "old yet all seems fine", and they experience unanticipated tread separation and such....several anecdotes to the point of it being a "common wisdom" best I can tell.

Beyond that, I have not seen a "more objective" verification of this...in my mind, after the death of such an "old yet otherwise in good shape and used properly" tire, an autopsy of that tire could show evidence of this "rotting from the inside"....I am not sure anyone has posted details about what that would look like (beside unexplained otherwise tread separation)?

Absence of such "more objective review", I am very very inclined to accept the common wisdom or orthodoxy on this matter until clearly proven otherwise as the cost of being wrong is potentially massive comparatively!!!!!!!!! Many many posts on this site have expressed huge regret about pushing past such "widely accepted advice"

[m.hony]

I'm thinking the deterioration of a tire is from the outside in...
What on the inside would rot the tire? Air? Moisture?
Maybe as a tire ages the entire thing is decaying/rotting/deteriorating all the way through and through at the same rate.
Rubber compounds and petroleum may dry over time? The moisture leaves them possibly? The flexibility/pliability leaves along with the moisture?
The same principle under which I am getting crepey skin and a double chin... Time, age, and gravity...
Tire dressing seems to help only slightly. The tire dressing continues to dry out or run off and has to be continually applied.
I think 7 years is a reasonable top end limit for replacing tires. 6, 5, or 4 years might even be better and safer.
There's a reason why there are new tires being manufactured at factories and sold at tire stores every day.
Other things may also affect it- less true rubber, more synthetic compounds- Who knows?
One thing I do know: Nothing lasts forever... Everything has to be replaced from time to time...
All I really did by getting LT tires vs. ST tires is increase my known 3 year life on ST tires to a known 7 year life on LT tires... Buying a little time... Buying a little peace of mind... Have had several tread separations on ST tires... Not a single tread separation on LT tires. Don't recall ever having a blowout on LT tires, either- have had blowouts on P-rated tires but not in the last 17 years...
All of this is still anecdotal and not scientific, but anecdotal- especially when based upon personal experience- works for me...
My truck 'n' trailer are worth more than the few bucks I might save by purchasing lesser quality tires. My life is certainly worth more than the few bucks I might save...
It actually costs less to buy one set of LT tires vs. 3 sets of ST tires in the long run. So money or finances isn't even an issue. Just the same way it costs less to buy 1 Airstream trailer vs. buying 3 sob trailers in a lifetime... Or it costs less to buy 1 John Deere mower than 3 Murray (or whatever box store brand) mowers...
And... We are all still free will agents. We can buy whatever truck, trailer, tires, batteries, converter/charger we choose based on how much money is in our hip pocket...

[Tom_T]

The "rot from the inside" is more of a "it can be cracking on the inside where you can't see it" issue.

The rubber tends to dry out faster in tires when they're not used often enough to squish or move the polymers in the rubber compounds around in the tire body to keep the rubber pliable, then it cracks. Not too unlike when the vinyl seats or dashboards eventually "dry out" & shrink then crack.

Tire Rack has a good Tech section with some informative articles about this & other stuff.

And BTW for M.Hony - the ST Tire life is NOT 3 years, while LT is 5 years. Any P, LT, ST, Classic/Bias, etc. tire can age out with cracks far earlier than the tire mfgrs.' recommended life of 8 or 10 years (vary by mfgr. - read up on the subject at Tire Rack Tech), whereas the recommended change interval for STs tends to be 5 years due to their sitting unused on a trailer for much of every year, but many go far longer too.

The P & LT also can & will age out at 2-3 years too with little use to move the polymers (?term?) in the rubber around in the tires to keep them from cracking, as I posted above herein & before elsewhere on these forums. I know personally.

In fact, the ST tires are designed to be sitting more than on driven vehicles, so it is just possible that the LT may start cracking before STs if given a side-by-side long term test on 2 identical trailers driven occasionally, without changing over a long term of several years.

Safe Travels!
Tom
///////

[m.hony]

I've never gotten over 3 years from an ST tire.
We use our trailer 25 times per year.
ST tires are not high mileage or long life tires by any stretch.
Rumor is that the Chinese made ST tires leave out some ingredient that P or LT tires have.
I'll never have another ST tire as long as I live.
Although still anecdotal and not scientific, personal experience tells me all I need to know.
I'll never convince you.
You'll never convince me.
Agree to disagree.
Move along.

[dkottum]

"rot from the inside"? I would never replace good, protected and cared for tires at 6 years on this advice.

I just replaced the 12 year old original tires (Continental) on our VW Jetta TDI, not entirely worn out tread, as nice as new sidewalls in and out, never lose air. The car is always garaged except when driving it.

[CapriRacer]

Some insight into the " tires rot from the inside":

It's the oxygen in the pressurized gas mixture that is the issue. That pressure is driving the oxygen through the tire.

So one would think that using a non-reactive gas, such as nitrogen, would eliminate the issue - EXCEPT - there is oxygen in the atmosphere and it would be driven INTO the tire according to the Law of Partial Pressure of Gases. (This has been demonstrated)

Also, the inside of the tire has a layer of rubber designed to contain the air - and it is usually a halobutyl type of rubber and they don't crack. What's important is the internal rubber - and you can't see that, nor judge its condition. The best you can do is look at the sidewall, and if the tire manufacturer uses the same type of rubber on the sidewall as it does internally (some don't!), then cracking on the outside is an indicator.

One might ask why don't tire manufacturers use types of rubber that don't deteriorate over time?

1) There aren't any.
2) The types of rubber that don't crack don't do well for endurance.
3) The ones that do well for endurance are subject to deterioration over time.

So the best strategy for a tire manufacturer is to use high endurance rubber, and add antioxidants (AO's) to the mix to slow down the deterioration. That's why exercising the tire results in better life. The AO's get used up at the surface, and exercising the tire allows unused AO's to migrate to the surface.

[PharmGeek]

For us weekend warriors that do 2-3 weeks per year max and 7-8 weekend trips - is there any good advice for exercising the tires?

[m.hony]

Go camping more often?
I think we use our trailer often enough that tire decay is not really an issue.
The only month I haven't camped is February.
If I was off Presidents Day like my wife we would camp in February...
Every weekend/every other weekend at the closest state park, corps of engineers campground, or forest service campground will exercise the tires.
You live fairly close to Smith Lake...
Maybe work schedule and kids in school prevents camping all the time?

[PharmGeek]

Yeah - my wife works every other weekend and on our free weekends other crap gets in the way - small children's b-day parties, other responsibilities, etc

I think in 2015 we used it enough to avoid this concern but in 2016 we had a death in the family and just wacky schedules and less leave from work and the AS sat for quite a bit relatively

[m.hony]

Life happening-
Weddings, funerals, graduations...
Sickness, health, medical...
Money- or lack thereof...
We would camp even more, but...
We are camping a little less this year than ever before to clear up some debt- hospital bills and a new car I still owe 34 payments/$18,000 on...
Maybe in a year or 2 or 3 we can get back at it like we used to do...
By then, I will have 1 more week of vacation along with no car note...
I can't wait...
Chompin' at the bit-
Rarin' to go-

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by nickclifford

local tire shop says, "official line" is to replace after 6-7 yrs , but if tire sat in a warehouse with no sun exposure, that wouldn't necessarily apply ... implying it's more about time on the trailer exposed to the elements than an absolute from date of production.

Correct BUT
Some tire companies start the warranty clock on date of sale others on date code on tire.

If date of sale you would need tire bill of sale to establish

Whatever it needs to be in writing.