ST tires

[rp709]

Here is a good video on the difference between trailer specific (ST) tires and passenger/light truck tires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Sw...RXS3GzIK034lOg

[rp709]

Here is a discussion from the Tire Rack. Goodyear Marathon ST tires may be over inflated by 10 psi to increase the speed rating from 66-75 mph. Load capacity is unchanged. I'm staying with ST tires. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=219

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by rp709

Here is a discussion from the Tire Rack. Goodyear Marathon ST tires may be over inflated by 10 psi to increase the speed rating from 66-75 mph. Load capacity is unchanged. I'm staying with ST tires. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=219

Staying with ST tires is no problem. The problem well documented here on Airforums seems to be getting the ST tires to stay with you.

Ken

[Phoenix]

Major tire failure threads on AirForums: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...ml#post1186770

[rp709]

I have read the many posts of ST trailer tire failure. I am certainly concerned about it. However, what do you think the proportion of trailers with ST tire vs. those using LT tires? It is likely 99.9% to 1. The track record of using LT tires on Airstream trailers is very limited. The number of failures of LT tires cannot be determined in a statistically valid way, in my opinion. Airstream is offering them in order to use the 16" wheel. This may turn out to be a good way to go and I will certainly consider it when I have a ST tire failure; which I have not yet had. Again, the miles driven with LT tires on trailers in miniscule compared with ST tires and anecdotal evidence is hardly conclusive. After hyping the Michelin tire swap, how many will report a failure? (This is why statistically valid studies have to be controlled to factor in such things). If you watch the rear tires on a tandem trailer skid in tight turns, or are dragged over a curb entering a driveway, you can understand why ST tires have stiffer sidewalls. How will this abuse affect LT tires over time? No one knows. Clearly, ST tires have a 65 mph speed limit and over temping them with under inflation or high speeds contributes to their failure rate. Are all the various tire manufacturers clueless when it comes to making ST tires for trailers, or should they just come to this forum and get the facts?

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by rp709

However, what do you think the proportion of trailers with ST tire vs. those using LT tires?

Again, the miles driven with LT tires on trailers in miniscule compared with ST tires and anecdotal evidence is hardly conclusive.

If you watch the rear tires on a tandem trailer skid in tight turns, or are dragged over a curb entering a driveway, you can understand why ST tires have stiffer sidewalls. How will this abuse affect LT tires over time? No one knows. Clearly, ST tires have a 65 mph speed limit and over temping them with under inflation or high speeds contributes to their failure rate. Are all the various tire manufacturers clueless when it comes to making ST tires for trailers, or should they just come to this forum and get the facts?

You based all this on what? That video and some marketing? Stiffer sidewalls? I'm pretty sure most LT tires have stiffer sidewalls than the ST tires. I know this for a fact, because I offroad regularly, and purchasing tires with stiffer sidewalls is common place.

Also, Airstream owners aren't the only ones running LT tires, so you can't claim that it's minuscule because of a few posts on just this forum. How many Airstream owners don't even use this forum?

The past two owners of mine never did. And even the ones who read, how many actively post what they do to their truck?

Not discounting your idea here. But to completely disregard the LT tires?

But you did say "your opinion" so....

I'd argue that that the "thicker" sidewalls and heat dissipation claims need to be demonstrated and proven.

What materials make this tire dissipate heat better than an LT tire?

How does it's tread pattern improve sway control and reduce sway?

In the overland forums we ask similar questions of tire manufactures, how does a tread pattern improve handling in sand, how does it handle when air'd down, etc.

Lets see some comparative data.

[rp709]

I guess I touched a nerve here. What I am suggesting is that reports on this forum about ST tire failures do not account for failures of LT tires used on trailers. Does anyone have this data for comparison? Is there any doubt that vastly more ST tires have been and are in use on trailers, than LT tires? Obviously many trailer makes now accept the use of LT tires. Maybe they will hold up. How will you know how their failure rate compares with ST tires? But to suggest that ST tires do not have stiffer sidewalls or other design differences from LT tires is to say that Goodyear and other ST tire makers are not representing their products accurately when they say just that. It is fine to prefer a newer LT design to an ST tire, but it is not OK to say the design differences don't exist. Why would Goodyear, for example, bother making a ST tire if LT tires are just a good for trailers? The prices are comparable. To be critical of Goodyear and Maxxis and Carlisle is to suggest one knows more than they do about building tires.

[dkottum]

After many GYM blowouts, many forum members have switched to Michelin 16" LT tires and report not a single blowout. Rough data but good enough to convince us, as we want the reliability for our frequent long distance travel.

[gandttimes]

I'm with you rp709. I found that in 30 years of sales that unhappy customers are much more vociferous than happy customers and it unfortunately shows up in the statistics and ratings of many products.


George

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by gmeikle

I'm with you rp709. I found that in 30 years of sales that unhappy customers are much more vociferous than happy customers and it unfortunately shows up in the statistics and ratings of many products.


George

I hear this, and while it's true people like to complain, I feel this is the salesman's myth. From all the forums I've been a part of, people recommend the tar out of things they enjoy. This is why "word of mouth" is the biggest factor in sales.

Originally Posted by rp709

But to suggest that ST tires do not have stiffer sidewalls or other design differences from LT tires is to say that Goodyear and other ST tire makers are not representing their products accurately when they say just that.

Most folks aren't running big heavy tires. So compared to what is standard on most LT trucks and Passenger cars, sure. But there are LT tires with thicker sidewalls.

Once you enter the aftermarket world of upgrades, it can go both ways.

For example, Dodge thought it was brilliant to put PASSENGER, yeah PASSENGER tires on my truck from the factory. But most owners end up upsizing to LT tires with better load range and firmer sidewall. The stock Goodyear SR-A's ride very smoothly and give the Ram that excellent ride over Ford & Chevy, but the sidewalls are super flexy.

Need to compare both ways when examining things. It's a valid claim.

Originally Posted by rp709

It is fine to prefer a newer LT design to an ST tire, but it is not OK to say the design differences don't exist. Why would Goodyear, for example, bother making a ST tire if LT tires are just a good for trailers? The prices are comparable. To be critical of Goodyear and Maxxis and Carlisle is to suggest one knows more than they do about building tires.

Because applications and use vary across the board, thats why. Has nothing to do with saying that they don't know how to design tires.

For the same reason they make AT and MT tires is the same reason they make ST tires.

[Phoenix]

A few comments in response to RP709's post:

• What I am suggesting is that reports on this forum about ST tire failures do not account for failures of LT tires used on trailers. Does anyone have this data for comparison?
  
  Currently, there is no poll on this forum that reflects data for only LT tire failures. Over the past couple of years, many have switched from ST to LT tires; so there are probably enough members now to get an idea of how LT tires are holding up. Unless someone else decides to create a poll on this topic, I plan to do this during the holidays when the current travel season is over and most of the tire failures for this year have occurred. Members are pretty vocal regarding blowouts, tread separation, etc.; so I think that if there was a growing trend of LT tire failures, there would be posts with photos. Of note, one member and a friend both had problems with BFG Commercial TA LT tires (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...ml#post1485843). However, I do not recall any other LT tire problems other than a couple of reports of flats due to road hazards (e.g., nails/foreign objects, drove over a curb and bent the wheel rim, etc.).
  
  
• Is there any doubt that vastly more ST tires have been and are in use on trailers, than LT tires?
  
  No, there is no doubt that (travel, boat and utility) trailer manufacturers continue to install ST tires as OEM equipment; and owners continue to use them as replacements based on trailer and tire manufacturers' recommendations.
  
  
• Obviously many trailer makes now accept the use of LT tires. Maybe they will hold up. How will you know how their failure rate compares with ST tires?
  
  See comments under first bullet.
  
  
• But to suggest that ST tires do not have stiffer sidewalls or other design differences from LT tires is to say that Goodyear and other ST tire makers are not representing their products accurately when they say just that. It is fine to prefer a newer LT design to an ST tire, but it is not OK to say the design differences don't exist. Why would Goodyear, for example, bother making a ST tire if LT tires are just a good for trailers?
  
  I don't think anyone disputes the fact that ST tires are constructed differently than passenger car and LT tires. Obviously, that's why there is a huge difference in tire mileage, longevity and reliability.
  
  Regarding ST tires having stiff sidewalls, yes, the sidewalls are stiffer than passenger car tires. However, I suspect they are no stiffer than LT tires with the same "maximum load" rating (in pounds). In fact, the extra-heavy nylon sidewalls on a GYM that has the tread and half of the tire casing gone, are soft and floppy like cotton duck "canvas" tent fabric, certainly not what one would expect to see.
  
  As for "Goodyear ... bothering to make an ST tire, when LT tires are just as good for trailers" (paraphrased), it's always about money. ST tires are cheap to make; and just like automakers, most trailer manufacturers just need something that will last until the new owner takes delivery. For example, how many TV owners replaced the OEM tires with exactly the same brand and model? I suspect nearly all switched to what they thought was a better tire for their needs. Unfortunately, replacement tire options are very limited for ST tires. Consequently, one must switch to 16" wheels to expand their options.
  
  
• The prices are comparable.
  
  This depends on the tire selected and the area where one lives, drives and tows. For example, a GYM may be suitable in northern states where summer temperatures are moderate (e.g., 85-95 degrees Fahrenheit). However, if one tows in the desert southwest where summer highway temperatures typically reach 110-118+, most ST tires just aren't up to the job. In this case, the price difference between an ST and an LT tire could be significant. For example, for a 225/75x15 or 225/75x16 tire, the current price for a GYM (ST) = $90, a Michelin LTX MS/2 (LT) = $188, and a Michelin XPS Rib (LT) = $270 (not including tax, mounting or balancing).
  
  
• To be critical of Goodyear and Maxxis and Carlisle is to suggest one knows more than they do about building tires.
  
  When one has owned all of these ST tire brands and experienced catastrophic failures on most, regardless of whether they are knowledgeable of actual tire manufacturing techniques, they use their tire-buying dollars to vote on the brands and models they think are best.
  
  Personally, living in Arizona, I vote for Michelin XPS Ribs. They are expensive; but after having GYM and Maxxis tire failures, and being stranded for hours in 110 degree heat in extremely remote areas, I think they are worth the extra money. After making the switch, I have had absolutely no tire problems on our Bambi; and I am relieved of the constant worry about blowouts, tread separation and tire-failure-related damage to our Airstream.
  

[John&Vicki]

Subscribed...

[perryg114]

ST tires are for garbage trailers. Don't put them on anything you care about. They are not a man rated tire. Your trailer is expendable.

Perry

[Lance M]

rp709,
It might be a good idea for you to compare these two tires for yourself.
GoodYear Wrangler HT $169
GoodYear Marathon $90
Both made my the same manufacturer. Lay your hands on each of them while they are off the rim and tell us which tire appears or feels to have "stiffer" sidewalls and a more robust construction. One of these tires, I highly recommend for use on Airstreams. The other is possibly suitable for use on a utility trailer or bumpers on a dock somewhere.

[Howard L.]

Fact should be if your tires, ST or LT, are weight rated much higher than needed by your trailer and you keep them inflated to their sidewall max number, you should be more than fine--I fact, run TPMS so you always know their temp and pressure. I do believe the brand has a lot to do with it all also. For example, it's hard to beat Michelin for car or truck. I'm glad a number of our forum members are running LT tires. I'll call you the test group. Hopefully in 5 years there will be enough miles traveled for a good report. Sorry, Phoenix, but as of now, I don't think so. In the meantime, unless you believe all manufactures are lying: ST tires are designed to carry more weight, provide a more stable ride for a towed vehicle, and dissipate heat generated by the heavy load. When I see blow out reports of these tires, I think of overloaded trailers or under inflated tires. And, I notice the report does not include that information. Phoenix is correct, if you want the ultimate, buy the Michelin Rib tire, 16 inch "E" rated. All steel, built for heavy truck duty and no 65 mph limit. Cost: well, just don't dwell on that part. But even with those there are limits on cold weather use, so nothing's perfect.


Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by John-aka-Poppy

Subscribed...

Me, too!

I really enjoy it when people who know only a little about tires talk about them. Dunning-Kruger effect!

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Me, too!

I really enjoy it when people who know only a little about tires talk about them. Dunning-Kruger effect!

That's a pretty fancy name for what my Grandma used to call "too big for your britches".

However tires are far from the only subject where that phenomenon can be encountered here. (or on any forum for that matter).

Ken

[Bill M.]

ST tires and LT tires are not tested and rated by the same standard. What would the load rating be for a GYM ST tire if it was tested and rated to the same standard as a LT tire? Or a P tire?

[rp709]

Which Michelin LT tires are the subject of a new recall?

[r carl]

I can show you just how good ST tires are in an afternoon, we can put a set on my 3/4 ton truck and I will show you just how fast they can fail.