Repaired tire

[SteveH]

The real problem in the Explorer/Firestone thing was the fact that Ford had such a miserable riding vehicle that they specified the tires be run at 24psi to attempt to cover up the horrible ride of the Explorer.

Anyone with any knowledge/experience with tires run at low air pressures at highway speeds knows the tires will get overheated and come apart. Simple physics of tires. Why do you think we run 65psi or higher in our trailer tires?

Granted the Firestones were not the greatest tires in the world, but the real problem was running them at 24psi., the Ford specified air pressure.

[J. Morgan]

I had one of those Explorers, it rode like an oxcart and the handling was quirky. It had some kind of weird intermittent understeer mixed with intermittent oversteer at highway speeds. If one of these things were to blow a tire, and the driver didn't stay cool and focused, bad things could happen.

As things are, the tires got the blame, and it is so engrained in people of our generation that it seems like any discussion about the chance of tires blowing out the Firestone/Explorer thing is drawn out as an example.

Before the Explorer thing Firestone took a hit on their 721 tires,,,, some will remember their commercials, "seven around two, wrapped by one", explaining their use os a unique stranded wire to make the belts.

It is my understanding that the belts were better, but the stiffness of their wire caused failures because the stiff wire caused extra heat via friction when the tires were run low.

They had just beginning to come out of the 721 thing when Explorer hit them with the KO punch.

1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I had one of those Explorers, it rode like an oxcart and the handling was quirky. It had some kind of weird intermittent understeer mixed with intermittent oversteer at highway speeds. If one of these things were to blow a tire, and the driver didn't stay cool and focused, bad things could happen.

As things are, the tires got the blame, and it is so engrained in people of our generation that it seems like any discussion about the chance of tires blowing out the Firestone/Explorer thing is drawn out as an example.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

Yes, I agree. I didn't have one so can't testify to how they drove and handled, but have a friend who has one still, and rode in it several times, and it did ride like an oxcart. His was among the tire recall, and he got new tires out of the deal. He has since moved the vehicle to Alaska, and it stays there as his summer vehicle for use up there only.

[Tireman9]

There are a few different issues with repaired tires.

Given that a majority of the driving public can drive on a low, leaking or flat tire have have no idea of the tire's condition the problem is that there is almost no way to know how many miles under what load & speed conditions and at what inflation the tire was driven there is no way to even make a guess on the amount of structural damage that has been done to the tire.

The proliferation of "string" plug repairs at what passes for an auto parts store or department in Walmart we see a goo number of people and even many so called service stations will offer the low cost option of doing a "plug" repair which means there is no possibility of the tire tach to even do a cursory examination for internal damage never mind the hidden structural damage that is all but impossible to see. Remember it is in most circumstances the new hire guy with the least experience and least training that is given the job of doing a repair. It is also important to remember that the "glue" used to attach the plug repair is not much different than the rubber cement used to glue a couple of pieces of paper together. There is no chemical bonding taking place or heat driven vulcanization accomplished.

To many people if you pay for a service you probably consider it a "professional" job which as can be seen in the two pictures I previously posted is clearly not the case.

The patch is to seal the air chamber and the plug is intended to prevent water and moisture from direct entrance into the steel belt package. A patch only repair will not prevent the steel belts from rusting so just as Plug only is not an acceptable repair neither is a patch only repair.

Now as to the location of acceptable patch/plug repairs. The shoulder portion of tires sees the greatest motion which places the greateds strain on the bond between the patch and the tire. It has been found that many times this extra motion can lead to a detachment of the patch from the butyl innerliner material which can lead to further air loss.

Now is it possible to repair a tire at the outer edges of the steel belt package? Yes, but the closer you are to the belt edge the more likely is the failure of the patch so would you as a tire company be willing to guarantee each and every repair made if it is in an asre of high stress?
Don't forget there are ambulance chasers more than willing to sue a multi-million dollar corporation. Many times in the hope of a settlement as many times it is less expensive for the company to settle than to try and defend yourself for even if you are found not guilty it probably cost you more than what an early settlement would cost.

[J. Morgan]

I don't disagree with any of that except where I am to throw a $600 tire away because it has a nail in it 1/2" too close to the edge of the tire.

Especially when I am convinced in my mind that if were to leave it at the shop it would be patched and sold as used.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[Tom Nugler]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I don't disagree with any of that except where I am to throw a $600 tire away because it has a nail in it 1/2" too close to the edge of the tire.
Especially when I am convinced in my mind that if were to leave it at the shop it would be patched and sold as used.

Things must be a lot different down south. Every tire that's changed out on a clients car up here stays inside the shop and is taken off site by a licensed tire recycler. If I found out someone here was taking tires and reselling them, let alone repairing and selling them, they'd be written up if not terminated.
At the new car dealership level tires are generally warranted by the manufacturer and not the car company. Any repairs are covered by our 12/12 warranty. With $900+ wheel and tire assemblies we're not going to take that hit for a failed cheap repair.
Tireman. You should have posted a pic of a tire that looks perfect on the outside with a handful of ground up rubber rolling around on the inside after being run nearly flat for a while. The monkeys at Wall-Mart, Pep-Boys, Jiffy-Lube, et-al would never have caught this jamming a string inside the nail hole, over-inflating the tire and sending the guy down the road waiting for an accident to happen.
I'm interested if the OP knows how the tire was repaired, or if this discussion has scared him off.
I've been in the biz for 42 years and I've seen a lot of things that were done by “professionals” that don't come close to be what could be considered contemporary professional standards.


Tom

[rmkrum]

Agree. A hole 'close' to tread shoulder should not be patched. I've had tire shops flat refuse to do this.

I also only run Michelin tires on my passenger vehicles since a pair of properly inflated properly sized Firestone tires blew out on me, fortunately at low speed on a GMC van I had. Not willing to risk my family's life on crap tires again.


Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by r carl

In the 70's I used to hang out at the gas station and watch them clamp those patches to the inside of tires and light them with a match.

I think this was done just to get the solvents in the glue to "dry" or flash-off faster so they could hurry up and finish the "repair". This is NOT part of any proper repair practice instruction I have ever seen.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Tom Nugler

Things must be a lot different down south. Every tire that's changed out on a clients car up here stays inside the shop and is taken off site by a licensed tire recycler. If I found out someone here was taking tires and reselling them, let alone repairing and selling them, they'd be written up if not terminated.
At the new car dealership level tires are generally warranted by the manufacturer and not the car company. Any repairs are covered by our 12/12 warranty. With $900+ wheel and tire assemblies we're not going to take that hit for a failed cheap repair.
Tireman. You should have posted a pic of a tire that looks perfect on the outside with a handful of ground up rubber rolling around on the inside after being run nearly flat for a while. The monkeys at Wall-Mart, Pep-Boys, Jiffy-Lube, et-al would never have caught this jamming a string inside the nail hole, over-inflating the tire and sending the guy down the road waiting for an accident to happen.
I'm interested if the OP knows how the tire was repaired, or if this discussion has scared him off.
I've been in the biz for 42 years and I've seen a lot of things that were done by “professionals” that don't come close to be what could be considered contemporary professional standards.


Tom

I always like this "professional" work

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I don't disagree with any of that except where I am to throw a $600 tire away because it has a nail in it 1/2" too close to the edge of the tire.

Especially when I am convinced in my mind that if were to leave it at the shop it would be patched and sold as used.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

Just hope you are never involved in an accident where a hungry lawyer is involved. I worked as consultant in a case involving a fatality. Everyone that had touched, sold or serviced the car for a two year period was involved. They all ended up paying a share of the settlement and legal fees even though the facts indicated it was 100% driver error.

A grieving widow will win over evil business owners almost every time.

[J. Morgan]

Lol, a person can do everything right and get their donkey handed them by a "hungry lawyer".

Like I said, there is a higher likelihood of food poisoning, many, many, many times over than a properly applied patch beyond the center three ribs of the tread causing a problem, and much higher still that it will cause an accident.

Taking a shower is a risk, and I will stick by my words that a regular old flat repair on a regular old puncture beyond the center third of the tread and not in the sidewall is an extremely small risk that sells a lot of tires.

As far as your mention of tires being run low or flat changing the game, I mentioned this in my first post to this thread.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[J. Morgan]

http://youtu.be/mBs8wqqRQ3M


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[SteveH]

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that, by my count at least, we have two Tire Engineers on this forum, and I've never read either one make a definite statement about a tire, good or bad, but only vague innuendo's of what might result if whatever the topic is about actually does happen?

In every situation there is a worst case possibility.

[J. Morgan]

You would thing at this stage in tire evolution that they could make a tire that is repairable across the entire tread width..

#JustSayin.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

You would thing at this stage in tire evolution that they could make a tire that is repairable across the entire tread width..

#JustSayin.


1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow

Yea, and one that wouldn't come apart for no apparent reason.

[r carl]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

I think this was done just to get the solvents in the glue to "dry" or flash-off faster so they could hurry up and finish the "repair". This is NOT part of any proper repair practice instruction I have ever seen.

I decided to call him in Colorado where he now lives and he said he sometimes lit the solvent. He said the clamp to hold the patch on the tire was electric and got hot. He said shops now look at the date code before they patch a tire. Anything to sell you a new tire....

[CapriRacer]

First I want to comment on the Ford/Firestone thing a few years back. I examined this is detail and published my results here:

Barry's Tire Tech

The data suggests that Firestone did indeed have a problem worse than other tire manufacturers. They had a design that was more prone to separation, and they had a process that produced rubber that wasn't as good as well. Their own data shows that other designs and other plants performed better.

The data also suggests that Ford was not the source of Firestone's problem. The information I provided doesn't address the vehicle itself and whether or not the vehicle was more prone to accidents than other similar vehicles.

Second I want to talk about repairs and tire failure.

I know it is difficult to understand that part of the problem of repaired tire is that the tire was leaking and therefore being run underinflated, (and hence more prone to failure). Unfortunately, it is difficult to sort out if a repaired tire failed because it was built inadequately or failed because it was run underinflated (due to the leak that was repaired.)

As I said earlier, there is a risk running repaired tires. And whether or not to run a repaired tire becomes an exercise in how much risk are you willing to take. The other end of this risk is that the consequences are sometimes quite severe. Each person is going to have a different take on the risk vs vs consequence vs benefit. I only want people to understand that there is a risk and to face it head on as they make their decision.

[slowmover]

A repaired tire is at best a spare tire, IMO.

[featherbedder]

Originally Posted by r carl

I decided to call him in Colorado where he now lives and he said he sometimes lit the solvent. He said the clamp to hold the patch on the tire was electric and got hot. He said shops now look at the date code before they patch a tire. Anything to sell you a new tire....

Before tubeless tires every tire had tubes, that I patched many, the norm was spread glue light w/match making glue very sticky ready to apply patch, nothing was ever done with casing unless needed boot, also some patches in metal pan with thermo then light with match these were clamped onto tube. I have never seen electric heat type, not they were not around just never saw any. These types did not use glue, also scuffed tube w/sandpaper or else patch would fail, now my flats are repaired at large tire shop w/plug & patch, unless tube type on some off road equip. then old fashioned way.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

....................................

Second I want to talk about repairs and tire failure.

I know it is difficult to understand that part of the problem of repaired tire is that the tire was leaking and therefore being run underinflated, (and hence more prone to failure). Unfortunately, it is difficult to sort out if a repaired tire failed because it was built inadequately or failed because it was run underinflated (due to the leak that was repaired.) .................

CapriRacer,

Will you expand a little on the definition of the term "underinflated"? What does that really mean?
For example: For all of my trailers the trailer manufacturer recommends a specific inflation pressure. Typically, I think, most of us have more pressure in our trailer tires than the trailer manufacturer recommended (are we over inflated?), but less than the tire manufacturer's maximum pressure. If a slow leak develops in the tire, at what pressure point does the tire become "underinflated" and possibly damaged?
Does it have to do with exceeding the tire's load capacity at a specific pressure or being below the trailer manufacturer's recommendations?

Thanks for all the information you provide!